El dg 22 de 04 de 2012 a les 16:46 +0200, en/na Per Tunedal va escriure:
> Hi all of you,
> I reply myself to explain a bit further. I hesitate if Apertium is the
> right tool for the language pair SV-FR. In my opinion, the problems with
> the pronouns are the most important.
Hi, sorry we haven't replied sooner. I was hoping someone else would :)
> Some of the problems mentioned in point 3 must have surged when working
> on other language pairs:
>
> A.
> > ... the genus of the person will decide the genus
> > of the pronoun, not the genus of the object like in French. This is a
> > bit confusing: "Kalles mamma: hans mamma" would become "La mère de
> > Kalle: sa mère" (Kalle's mother: his mother) and "Lisas `pappa: hennes
> > pappa" would become "Le père de Lisa: son père" (Lisas father: her
> > father).
>
> This applies as well to e.g. the pair FR-EN and possibly to the pair
> ES-EN.
This isn't really a problem going from SV->FR, it is a problem going
FR->SV. The cheap way to solve this SV->FR is going to be to keep a
track of animates and their gender, but to be honest, this is the kind
of problem that even humans will have trouble with.
> B.
> > ... The translation of the personal pronoun "lui" will be either
> > "honom" (masculine = him) or "henne" (feminine = her).
> > ex. "Kalle ringer till henne" (Kalle phones her)= "Kalle lui téléphone" et
> > "Kalle ringer
> > till honom" (Kalle phones him) = "Kalle lui téléphone". A translator has to
> > check to whom
> > "lui" refers, somewhere above in the text.
>
> This applies as well to e.g. the pair FR-EN and possibly to the pair
> ES-EN.
Exactly, no real way of doing this nicely, see what I said before.
> C.
> > ... genders to
> > chose between when translating the French personal pronouns as direct
> > object (object directe), "le" et "la".
> > ex. The boook of Anna Gavalda "Je l'aimé" have the title "Jag älskade
> > honom" in Swedish. (I loved him). When I read the book in French I
> > thought the title meant "Jag älskade henne" (I loved her). I don't know
> > if the translator asked the author. Any how, you will realize that the
> > double meaning is essential if you ever read the book.
> > An other exemple: "Charles la comprend" = "Kalle förstår det" (He
> > understands that) or "Kalle förstår den" (Kalle understands it eg. the
> > cat, he's a cat whisperer :-) ) or "Kalle förstår henne" (Kalle
> > understands her).
>
> This applies as well to e.g. the pair FR-EN and possibly to the pair
> ES-EN.
Again, no nice way of doing this.
> D.
> >...it makes a difference if a possessive pronoun refers to the
> > subject or refers to someone else:
> > "Kalle älskar sina hundar. Niklas älskar hans hundar." = "Kalle aimes
> > ses chiens. Niklas aimes ses chiens." (Kalle loves his dogs. Niklas
> > loves his dogs. It's the same dogs, that are kept by Kalle, not by
> > Niklas! Same problem in English.)
>
> Someone might have encountered this problem working on e.g. the pair
> IS-EN or DA-EN.
Icelandic->English we just translate 'sin' and 'hans' to 'his' I think.
> So, I am eager to know how you others have tackled these problems, or if
> you have decided to ignore them.
>
> Unfortunately, the other problems aren't possible to solve, as far as I
> understand. If I haven't overlooked some feature in Apertium.
> Or maybe there is a solution for point 5:
>
> > 5. The placement of adjectives. Normally, Swedish adjectives are placed
> > before the noun and French adjectives are placed after the noun.
> > "Den vita hästen" = "Le cheval blanc"
> >
> > But there are some exceptions. Thirst the "BAGS adjectives" treating
> > beauty, age, goodness and size.
> > ex. "Le petit chien" = "Den lilla hunden"
> >
This one is easy, you just keep a list in transfer. I think the
Breton->French pair has an example of this. See:
<def-list n="adj_colloc_abans">
<list-item v="autre"/>
<list-item v="beau"/>
<list-item v="bon"/>
> > Second, in French the meaning might be changed by changing the position
> > of the adjective.
> > ex. "Ma vieille voiture" = "Min gamla bil" (My old car = I have used it
> > for years) et "Cette fois, je vais acheter une voiture nouvelle, et pas
> > un voiture d'occasion." = "Den här gången ska jag köpa en ny bil
> > (nytillverkad) och inte en begagnad. (This time, I will buy a new (brand
> > new) car and not a used car.)
Two things:
* Does this matter for translating to/from Swedish ?
* Does the indefiniteness + position tell you something ?
Sorry not to be more positive, but most of what you're describing are
general problems with translation (and machine translation), not just
with Apertium. You can approximate a fix, but you're never going to get
it right all the time, the best you can do is get the closest
approximation possible.
If it's really important to translate the possessives right from
French->Swedish, and your readers won't be able to work it out from the
context, then you could look into using Constraint Grammar to do
anaphora resolution before passing it to the apertium-transfer.
Regards,
Fran
> Yours,
> Per Tunedal
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012, at 15:07, Per Tunedal wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have some reflections regarding the pair SV -FR. Unlike Bernard
> > Chardonneau I feel that there are considerable differences between the
> > two languages. Below I will list a few, perhaps someone has an idea how
> > to overcome some of them?
> >
> ---snip---
> >
> > Well, there you have got something to get your teeth into :-)
> >
> > Yours,
> > Per Tunedal
> >
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