El dg 22 de 04 de 2012 a les 20:34 +0200, en/na Per Tunedal va escriure: > Hi Francis, > thank you for your answer. It's a comfort to learn that at least the > order of adjectives is easy to solve! > > Se my answers below. > Yours, > Per Tunedal > > On Sun, Apr 22, 2012, at 14:48, Francis Tyers wrote: > > El dg 22 de 04 de 2012 a les 16:46 +0200, en/na Per Tunedal va escriure: > > > Hi all of you, > > > I reply myself to explain a bit further. I hesitate if Apertium is the > > > right tool for the language pair SV-FR. In my opinion, the problems with > > > the pronouns are the most important. > > > > Hi, sorry we haven't replied sooner. I was hoping someone else would :) > > > > > Some of the problems mentioned in point 3 must have surged when working > > > on other language pairs: > > > > > > A. > > > > ... the genus of the person will decide the genus > > > > of the pronoun, not the genus of the object like in French. > > --snip-- > > > > This isn't really a problem going from SV->FR, it is a problem going > > FR->SV. The cheap way to solve this SV->FR is going to be to keep a > > track of animates and their gender, but to be honest, this is the kind > > of problem that even humans will have trouble with. > > Yes, the Swedish translation becomes a bit strange.
I think it would be really great if it could be fixed. But in the meantime, we work with what we've got. Leave the repetitive bit up to the computer, and leave the human being to work out the hard bit. > > > > > B. > > > > ... The translation of the personal pronoun "lui" will be either > > > > "honom" (masculine = him) or "henne" (feminine = her). > > > > ex. "Kalle ringer till henne" (Kalle phones her)= "Kalle lui téléphone" > > > > et "Kalle ringer > > > > till honom" (Kalle phones him) = "Kalle lui téléphone". A translator > > > > has to check to whom > > > > "lui" refers, somewhere above in the text. > > > > > > This applies as well to e.g. the pair FR-EN and possibly to the pair > > > ES-EN. > > > > Exactly, no real way of doing this nicely, see what I said before. > > In my opinion this one (B) is really annoying. The translation to > Swedish easily becomes very strange. Well, it might be that I'm used to listening to non-native English, but often Romance language speakers make his/her mistakes in English. When the referent is obvious it doesn't really cause a problem. "My mum got stranded last week when his car broke." Unless there is a preceeding part of the discourse where another person's car is introduced, it's quite clear who the car belongs to. That is, the gender mistake does not effect the intelligibility of the final translation. > > > > > C. > > > > ... genders to > > > > chose between when translating the French personal pronouns as direct > > > > object (object directe), "le" et "la". > > > > ex. The boook of Anna Gavalda "Je l'aimé" have the title "Jag älskade > > > > honom" in Swedish. (I loved him). When I read the book in French I > > > > thought the title meant "Jag älskade henne" (I loved her). I don't know > > > > if the translator asked the author. Any how, you will realize that the > > > > double meaning is essential if you ever read the book. > > > > An other exemple: "Charles la comprend" = "Kalle förstår det" (He > > > > understands that) or "Kalle förstår den" (Kalle understands it eg. the > > > > cat, he's a cat whisperer :-) ) or "Kalle förstår henne" (Kalle > > > > understands her). > > > > > > This applies as well to e.g. the pair FR-EN and possibly to the pair > > > ES-EN. > > > > Again, no nice way of doing this. > > Again, this one is annoying. > > > > > > D. > > > >...it makes a difference if a possessive pronoun refers to the > > > > subject or refers to someone else: > > > > "Kalle älskar sina hundar. Niklas älskar hans hundar." = "Kalle aimes > > > > ses chiens. Niklas aimes ses chiens." (Kalle loves his dogs. Niklas > > > > loves his dogs. It's the same dogs, that are kept by Kalle, not by > > > > Niklas! Same problem in English.) > > > > > > Someone might have encountered this problem working on e.g. the pair > > > IS-EN or DA-EN. > > > > Icelandic->English we just translate 'sin' and 'hans' to 'his' I think. > > Yes, but the problem is the other way around: En - SV. How to translate > "his dogs"? How to know if the dogs belongs to Kalle or to Niklas? The > Swedish translation will imply that one of them is the owner. How do you > tackle it in the pair Icelandic->English? We don't translate from English->Icelandic, only from Icelandic->English. > --snip-- > > > --snip-- > > > > > > Second, in French the meaning might be changed by changing the position > > > > of the adjective. > > > > ex. "Ma vieille voiture" = "Min gamla bil" (My old car = I have used it > > > > for years) et "Cette fois, je vais acheter une voiture nouvelle, et pas > > > > un voiture d'occasion." = "Den här gången ska jag köpa en ny bil > > > > (nytillverkad) och inte en begagnad. (This time, I will buy a new (brand > > > > new) car and not a used car.) > > > > Two things: > > > > * Does this matter for translating to/from Swedish ? > > * Does the indefiniteness + position tell you something ? > > I will think it over. > > > > > Sorry not to be more positive, but most of what you're describing are > > general problems with translation (and machine translation), not just > > with Apertium. You can approximate a fix, but you're never going to get > > it right all the time, the best you can do is get the closest > > approximation possible. > > True. The reason I am interested in Apertium, is that I expected to get > a more consistent translation than with statistical translation. I also > expected to overcome some common errors by somehow creating a rule. But, > as I said before, I am not sure it's the right tool for SV-FR. (SV-EN > are closer, but there still remains some issues, as you can see.) Well, it will be a more consistent translation, whether it is more consistently wrong or not is another matter ;) On a purely linguistic and technical level, it is not the best tool for the job of translating Swedish<->French. There are other systems which would linguistically be better choices. You could for example try setting up OpenLogos, or LOGON, or Matxin which give you a deeper analysis. Or training Moses, which will give you state-of-the-art SMT results. You could also try buying an off-the-shelf system from someone like SYSTRAN or Gramtrans. The thing Apertium has going for it is that it is (a) free software, (b) it's easy to install [yes, try installing any of the others and you'll see what i mean], (c) it doesn't require knowing any complicated formalisms (HPSG, LFG) (d) you don't have to express Swedish or French grammar in terms of Basque, (e) it's pretty well documented, and (f) it has a pretty active developer community [if not on the mailing list, certainly on IRC!] > > > > If it's really important to translate the possessives right from > > French->Swedish, and your readers won't be able to work it out from the > > context, then you could look into using Constraint Grammar to do > > anaphora resolution before passing it to the apertium-transfer. > > If I have understood this right, I have to build a Constraint Grammar > from scratch. Any examples to look at? Anyone that has any experience of > this? Yes, there is lots of documentation. > Is it possible to reuse anything from the pair Norwegian Nynorsk and > Norwegian Bokmål? I suppose bokmål is similar to Danish and thus similar > to Swedish. Nynorsk would probably be more different. You could take the Norwegian Bokmål OB Tagger and convert it to Swedish. I'm not sure how effective this would be. Regards, Fran PS. Another one I find annoying, even translating between Romance languages are impersonal verb constructions with 'se'. e.g. "aquí se come bien" is not the same as "ici il se mange bien", it should be "ici on mange bien" (I think). We have a GSOC project to deal with this kind of thing: http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Pronoun_verb_combinations_in_Romance_languages ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second. Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You. Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE! http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2 _______________________________________________ Apertium-stuff mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
