I have always called ARS a 4.5 GL. It restricts you to only do things a certain way (i.e. Change Display is only on an Active Link). So it's a little better than a 4GL which allows you to do the same thing in many ways. SQL could be argued to be a classic 4GL.
I consider a 5GL to be Artificial Intelligence blended with the language. The idea of reuse is a key element to AI. ARS has elements of this, but not everywhere. You can reuse fieldids, forms, menus and many different objects throughout, but is it really a 5GL. Probably not in the classic sense. Therefore I consider ARS to be somewhere in between. In the great timeline of GLs, is 5GL even possible in the classic "Programming Language" sense. To have 5GL you require a knowledgebase of some type (a DB if you will). 5GL requires something to extract knowledge or information. A 5GL should self adjust as it is used and reuse is inherit. I often have wondered what is beyond 5GL. Is it the Star Trek android called "Data?" Or is it Terminator? What if you had Active Links and Filters for many, many, many, many, many, many knowledge constructs? At what point does it become self-reliant? Interesting concept! I'll have to write a new Sci-Fi novel with such a plot. As for this whole Buy vs. Build thread, what has changed? BMC Remedy has made ITSM more efficient from a Computer Science sense. What's different from this and what happened early on when "Open Window" took the place of Macros. The old guys out there remember stacking buttons with macros to get the results that you now get with "Open Window." Anybody remember recording 3 OS oriented Active Links for the same thing. (Windows, UNIX and Mac clients existed at one time). We had to adjust! The bottom line is that ARS has not changed significantly since 1993. Doug will say he has had one true bug since its creation. And I think that was because of a 32-bit verses 64-bit issue. What I guess I am saying is, "Get out there and see how the new ITSM works." It does a lot with GUIDs which are very efficient. GUIDs have been part of ARS for a long time. Customizations have not gone away. They have just gotten more interesting! Gordon M. Frank Remedy Skilled Professional ITIL V3 Certified Lockheed Martin -----Original Message----- From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carey Matthew Black Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:16 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of ARS development - was Buy vs. Build Shawn, I have thought _a lot_ about how to describe ARS over the last 10 years. I find it interesting that lots of programmers can not even agree on what "generation" of a language (and in some cases if ARS is a language at all) that ARS is. I have also observed that most business people have a hard time understanding how to manage it because it does not fit into most of their existing models either. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-generation_programming_language or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-generation_programming_language or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-generation_programming_language or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_programming_language or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_programming_language ( Or any other sites/books to discuss the fine technical distinctions between those groupings of computer programming languages that you prefer to site.) In fact most of these discussions, in the past, have even failed to try to describe the "type" or language that ARS is. (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_language) For example... Can we try to establish if ARS is "compiled", "interpreted", or maybe does it use a "byte code" model? Is ARS a "Visual programming language"? (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language) Is ARS best described as a "Domain-specific" language? ( If so what domain?) ( Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-Specific_Modeling A very interesting read ... and comparison IMO.) However, at the end of the analysis... these are just categorizations of the language and likely do not really identify the true strengths or weaknesses of the language itself. I will actually suggest that as the languages become more and more abstract, the strengths will have less to do with the language and more to do with the "programmer's knowledge of the problem". ( Which is, again IMO, the fundamental problem with fifth generation languages, that will take the longest to solve.) And I think this trait is what makes ARS a "challenging tool" for programmer and business person a like. While I think an open and genuine discussion of "pros and cons" are good for a community to have (many times over), the point is to formulate how those suggested changes will benefit BMC. After all, they use the platform to make money. So whatever they are going to change needs to show ROI to them and not necessarily the customer. Hopefully the customer will benefit in some way, but it may be less financial and more "business process" or "standardization" centric than financial bottom line too. BTW: I am going to be proposing a session at BUW to talk about "ARS as a programming language". If it is selected then I hope to see all of ARSList members there. That would be a sight to see. :) -- Carey Matthew Black Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP) ARS = Action Request System(Remedy) Love, then teach Solution = People + Process + Tools Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two. On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Pierson, Shawn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I want to change the topic slightly and go off on a tangent that keeps coming up repeatedly. That topic is of the power of ARS for development. > > While I agree that ARS is great, I would have to qualify that to say that if you want to build an application that is within its capabilities, it is great. However, having worked with Visual Basic, PHP, Perl, and a few other things, I see plenty of limitations in ARS as a development tool. > > For example, there is no such thing as a variable in ARS. Yes, you can add a field to a form, even a Display Only field, but you can't instantiate fields during runtime on the fly. You have to purposely create fields for usage later on, and this limitation causes us to often re-use certain fields as generic variables, which can make troubleshooting difficult sometimes. I've worked on a system that someone else built that I had to troubleshoot something on a field that had many different Set Fields actions occurring at different points with different tables. It was definitely possible, but since ARS is missing another major capability that most development platforms have. > > ARS doesn't have a way to step through code. We can't start up processing on a form, and pause it to see what is going on. All we can do is 1) go through log files and recreate the workflow in our minds, or 2) pop up messages after each piece of workflow we want to troubleshoot. If there was a way to step through each piece of workflow that is running, that would be a tremendous help to us. > > Another issue that is more of a matter of taste I guess, is the inability to generate flat source-code. Yes, I have learned to read .def files to some extent, but it should be easier to read. Instead of values like " 4\1\1\179\2\4\32\Change Level IA - Implementation\" in workflow, the definition files should display what we see in the Admin tool. > > These are the somewhat major problems I have with ARS for development. If you want to build an application with a database back end, a web interface, and have most of the standard controls (save, search, displaying tables, etc) just work automatically, ARS is a great too. There isn't anything out there that I've worked with which can top ARS development in terms of speed. In some cases, you do have to make sacrifices for more complex functionality, but it's still a great development platform for what it does. I just wish BMC would change the things I mentioned above, plus a few other minor ones (I'd like to be able to use arrays if they implement variables, I'd like to be able to have workflow triggered off of typing in specific fields, not just pressing enter and gain/lose focus, etc.) > > What are your thoughts about the pros and cons of ARS as a development tool? Perhaps we can put all of our heads together and go back to BMC and tell them what we want, plus come up with enough positive things about it to show our clients and employers that ARS is a great development tool. > > Shawn Pierson ________________________________________________________________________ _______ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Platinum Sponsor: www.rmsportal.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" _______________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Platinum Sponsor: www.rmsportal.com ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are"
