|
No two languages have exactly the
same sounds. A sound in one language may seem similiar to another sound of
another language but there is always a difference.
Many languages are plainly
deficient in many sounds from other languages. In such cases these languages
simply cannot write the correct pronounciation of these langauges. For instances, the following English
pronumciation cannot be written in any Indian langauges:
th as in
the, then, there etc.
th as in
thick, thin etc
f as in
fear etc
v as in
voice etc
there are many more.
In such cases, the Indian languages
will have to write the nearest pronounciation with an explanation. For
instance, for 'th' as in thin, they will have to
say, it sounds like th in Hindi but the tongue
does not touch the teeth in making this sound in English etc. (That we
Indians have an accent is mainly because nobody taught us the correct English
pronunciation in our schools).
In the same way, the Assamese X cannot be pronounced in Hindi,
Bengali and other languages because these languages are deficient of this X
sound. Therefore, the Hindiwala will have to say, it sounds like Hindi kh but Assamese X is much
softer and Assamese X is not an aspirated stop sound like kh but is a veller fricative sound where there is no
stoppage of air in making this sound etc. So they will have to explain the sound
of Oxom as Okhom, but
kh of Okhom is not exactly like Hindi kh.
In a similar case, do you know
that Arabic language does not have the p sound.
So they write Jaban instead of Japan, and try to explain that b in Jaban is not like Arabic b
etc?
BTW the Assamese X sound was there in Sanskrit, Bengali and even in English
and all these languages have simply lost this sound at one time or another.
Assamese is the only Indian language which is still carrying this
sound.
RB
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:38
PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book on life,ideals
of Sankaradeva released(The Assam Tribune, 1...
Let's assume for a moment that Assam remains in India for a few more
decades and Hindi language keeps the position it has now. :-)
How would you transliterate "Oxom" in Hindi script to get Hindi speakers
to pronounce the name like they do in Assam? How do you do it in
Bengali?
Just my tangential thought since so much has been written about
transliteration in English script. Think about it.
Like Sarangapani said the average person in Assam does not care how you
write "Oxom" in English. That's why it is a non-issue in Assam. Only
some of the expatriates are losing sleep over the issue.
Dilip
======================================================
Chan
Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
>There is no rationale.
*** My point exactly :-).
>One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to spell and
pronounce.
*** And here enters the sheep factor: Because someone used it in the
past, without any rationale, should thinking and able individuals in the
present time who can see better, ought to keep following the same path
too? Would be the new rationale? That in my book would be absurd.
Won't it for you too?
>Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a hot-button
issue?
*** Because of contemporary issues involving asserting one's ethnic
identity and correcting misnomers imposed by outsiders.
>How did people like K.K. Handique handle this? Or others for that
matter?
*** I don't know. And I don't NEED to know, because it is way too
simple a matter for anyone to seek 'expert' validation from. And no one else
should need that either.
At any event, if I read correctly here in Assam Net at one time, KKH
was an advocate of using the 'x' letter for transliteration of our 'xo'
sound. Furthermore, times change, and so do customs, including style of
writing, spelling, what-have-you. And WE have to do the right things by our
times, not someone who has been long gone.
c-da
At 4:16 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
>But the question is WHY? What
is the logic, the rationale?
There is no rationale. Such issues are
only relevant for the intelligentsia. For the common folks this is just
another nuance. Tell me why a khetiok working in his parched lands would
want to apply any logic in this regard?
>*** Do I take it therefore, that
"well-known literary figures' lead here is the driving factor?
One think so, as they ought to be ones
telling us how to spell and pronounce.
Just wondering. How is that this is now
suddenly a hot-button issue?
How did people like K.K. Handique handle
this? Or others for that matter?
How would KKH have written 'Oxom' or 'Oxom
Xahityo Xobha' or
even 'Xonkordeu' when they wrote in
English? There were no X's then.
Just curious
--Ram
On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Many people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev
or Xonkrordeb), but >when they write it in English, they write it
differently (Sankaradeva).
*** I noticed. Tell me something I don't know
:-).
But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the
rationale?
>And they did NOT come up with these spellings in English
all by themselves, but >because of the practice of
the literary figures and the GOA.
*** And what is THEIR logic?
>their lack of logic or they are
just 'sheep'
>as you suggest, is open to question.
*** Why is it still OPEN to question Ram? What part of my
logic is incomprehensible :-)?
>'cause thats how it has been probably written by
well-known literry figures.
*** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known literary
figures' lead here is the driving factor? And had these "well-known"
people used a Bengalified version or a Hindified version of
Assamese sounds before transliterating them in English, the sheep would
have followed them just the same, and sympathetic Assam Netters would
have manufactured convoluted justifications for them just the same
?
Call me dense, but that is the part I can't dig Ram. That
inability to process ordinary logic, particularly by people who ought to
be or could be expected to be :-).
c-da
At 12:59 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da.
>>---why they should follow your or my path to
spellings and transliteration.
>*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and
knowledgeably ( about >the subject matter) ought to go by what is
LOGICAL, not necessarily by >what Rajen suggests or I
support
They have the ability to reason well, but they just
consider this as something very important at this point of
time.
>But if you don't and you are not ashamed of
pronouncing it >Xonkrordev or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then
you ought to >transliterate it the way you pronounce
it.
Many people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or
Xonkrordeb), but when they write it in English, they write it
differently (Sankaradeva). And they did NOT come up with these
spellings in English all by themselves, but because of the practice of
the literary figures and the GOA.
Now, whether all this is due to their lack of logic or
they are just 'sheep'
as you suggest, is open to question.
I think, common folks just haven't given it much thought
and are not interested in making this a hot issue.
>*** WHY so ? Why does one write Sankaradeva? Can
you explain :-)?
'cause thats how it has been probably written by
well-known literry figures. Don't think common folks had some
agenda of pushing Sanskrit or English when they write that
way.
To you or me, writing that way may be an issue with
Assamese identity, but maybe not for others (at least it looks that
way)
>But that does NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of all
good things and >movements could be traced to a thought of a single
individual
No, it doesn't make it a non-issue. Noble as such things
are, one does need support. On the practical side, anything like this
does need support and interest - without which, you will be spitting
in the wind.
>> There was absolutely NO interest
-
>*** So?
Same as above
>Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my
own sense of what is >right and what is not, has served me very
well:-)!
So it has for me. But, I wonder what it does for the
"cause" :)
--Ram
On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Ram:
>---why they should follow your or my path to
spellings and transliteration.
*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and
knowledgeably ( about the subject matter) ought to go by what is
LOGICAL, not necessarily by what Rajen suggests or I support.
Rajen's or my role are little--we just help clarify the
issues.
Assamese people do not call their icon Sankaradeva,
do they? Do you? If you or others do, they ought to stick with that
transliteration. But if you don't and you are not ashamed of
pronouncing it Xonkrordev or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then
you ought to transliterate it the way you pronounce
it.
Is it a profound conundrum? Maybe so, to some. It
certainly is NOT for me. Ought not to be for you.
Should we follow like sheep? I would submit, we ought
not to.
>Never thought, I would hear that from you? What
then, do you recommend that >this public do?
*** Attempt to learn!
>So, this is really NOT about transliteration at all,
is it?
*** WHY so ? Why does one write Sankaradeva? Can
you explain :-)?
>You know, some of us actually
took out an online petition against this name issue. Want to
know the results?
*** I know. We have done that on a number of issues with
similar results. But that does NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of
all good things and movements could be traced to a thought of a
single individual.
> There was absolutely NO interest
-
*** So?
>Well, I just reminded, once
again, some of us were taken for another ride. I am still sore
from that rough ride
:)
*** Par for the course Ram! Do I need to retell accounts
of my rough rides :-)? But still I would not back down
from what I believe in to be correct, do I?
Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my own
sense of what is right and what is not, has served me very
well:-)!
c-da
At 10:43 AM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
Bhuban da and Manoj do make some good points. Yes, you
and Barua are probably right about the 'subject mentality' and
also how 'Assam' got mis-transliterated.
Like it or not, OXX has been bestowed the
'literary authority' as it consists of most of the famous literary
figures in Assam.
Now, you can say -why should we listen to the dictates
of OXX or the GOA etc? Well, the question can be turned around and
the common man on the street can well ask why they should follow
your or my path to spellings and transliteration.
Now, (even if they are all wrong, and say you, Barua,
and some others are right), how would non-literary types like
myself (or Monoj - sorry Monoj) propose a drastically different
spelling or go against the best literary minds in
Assam?
>the ignorant public takes it lying
down,
Never thought, I would hear that from you? What then,
do you recommend that this public do?
>It is those who have no self esteem, continue to
kow-tow to >superior language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it
English.
So, this is really NOT about transliteration at all,
is it? It is more about the Assamese identity. Why not sell
that idea straight out of the box, instead of mixing it up with
transliteration - after all the common man is ignorant
:).
You know, some of us actually took out an online
petition against this name issue. Want to know the
results?
Well, 5 voted for it, and no one else cared one way or
the other. There was absolutely NO interest - even
from those who were touting opposition to the GOA's changing the
name to Asom, ga-ga -ing all the way, and egging us to start the
petition.
Well, I just reminded, once again, some of us were
taken for another ride. I am still sore from that rough ride
:)
--Ram
On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Dear BK:
I can't see HOW the Oxom Xahityo Xobha could become
the sole custodian of the Assamese language or the Assamese
identity.
It is typical of desi-demokrasy, where elections
seem to bestow dictatorial/monarchical powers to bureaucrats and
elected reps., and the ignorant public takes it lying down,
while the intelligentsia, similarly clueless remain invisible
and silent.
>Rajen
ought to get a full hearing as anybody
else.
*** It is NOT just Rajen's pet peeve. It is an issue
for all Assamese who care about its 'ostitwo', its claim to an
identity all its own, without apologies, without having to bow
to ANYONE.
It is those who have no self esteem, continue to
kow-tow to superior language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it
English.
*** About the 'Sankaradeva' spelling for example,
could it have been that when the first British colonial masters
transliterated the name, were also people who
were Xongskrit learners, and could not separate the
Assamese from its Sanskrit
connections? Thus they chose to Sanskritize an
Assamese name, when they transliterated them in
English.
Once that happened, the subject people, and even
their intellectuals albeit similarly burdened by a subject
mentality, could not imagine transliterating Xongkordev. Instead
they followed the steps of their colonial
masters.
And to this day, some, including for example the AT,
cannot imagine breaking from that tradition of colonial
servitude, just like many of Assam's
intelligentsia.
But why should WE?
Best.
c
At 9:56 AM -0400 9/13/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="UTF-8"
Content-Language:
en
Dear
MKD/Mike et al
It
appears the State Government sought Asam Sahitya Sabha's views
on the matter of renaming Assam. It is possible without the
benefit of wide discussion and debate the Sahitya Sabha
recommended the change to Asom and the State Government
accepted it.
Perhaps
even now Asam Sahitya Sabha can take up the matter again. It
is not too late as the necessary Constitutional amendments are
yet to take place. Rajen ought to get a full hearing as
anybody else.
Regards
Bhuban
_______________________________________________
assam
mailing list
[email protected]
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
_______________________________________________
assam
mailing list
[email protected]
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
_______________________________________________
assam
mailing
list
[email protected]
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
_______________________________________________
assam mailing
list
[email protected]
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
|
