Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes

Sun, 24 Aug 2014 21:12:26 -0700 

Michael,

You are of course correct.
It is ridiculous. Not only that, I suspect ICAO never envisaged a qualification for recognition by another country that wasn't to be recognised in the holder's home country.
If I was a bureaucrat working for EASA or the FAA licencing departments I sure wouldn't recognise one of those. I'd reckon it was "intent to deceive".
Come to think of it, from a conversation I had a long time ago with an FAA general aviation office employee they regard recognition of foreign qualifications as being contingent on said qualification allowing you to fly legally in your home country. 

Oops.

Mike

At 12:47 PM 25/08/2014, you wrote:
For what it's worth, a credential that can't be used in Australia reflects badly on Australian pilots.
There is this extra step (paper work), that Australia does not recognise, but expects other countries to. It's not funny, it's ridiculous. 

Michael
On 25 Aug 2014, at 7:04 am, "Christopher McDonnell" <<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote:
Well, what will be needed re paperwork to fly a glider out from under the umbrella in the rain? <wlEmoticon-smile[1].png> 



From: <mailto:[email protected]>Christopher Thorpe
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 9:13 PM
To: <mailto:[email protected]>'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes

Ron
Refer to CASR 61 <http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2014C00046>http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2014C00046: 

61.1510 Privileges of glider pilot licences
61.1520 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot licences—recennt experience 61.1525 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot licences—flighht review 61.1530 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot licences—mediccal certificates 61.1535 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot licences—carriiage of documents
For what it’s worth, a CASA GPL only exists to assist GFA members wanting to have their Australian qualifications recognised overseas. It will not allow a person to fly gliders in Australia outside the umbrella of the GFA. 

Regards

<image001.png>Christopher Thorpe
Executive Manager, Operations | Gliding Federation of Australia (ABN 82 433 264 489) M: <wlmailhtml:{272EDEB5-B7BA-427C-A7ED-729D36715E7A}mid://00000266/>+61 4 1447 6151 | E: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] | w: <http://www.g/>www.g<http://glidingaustralia.org/>lidingaustralia.org 

<http://au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/>au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/
From: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders 
Sent: Sunday, 24 August 2014 8:59 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes

Thank you.
In the references listed I can not find the privileges and responsibilities of the CASA GPL?? 
ron
On 24 August 2014 18:51, Christopher Thorpe <<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: 
Ron
The GFA GPC is compliant in that it meets the standards specified in Annex 1 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation. The regulatory authority is in Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998, subparagraphs 61.1540 (2)(a),(b),& (c). 

CASA has produced a guidance booklet at:
<http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100191/part61booklet.pdf>http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100191/part61booklet.pdf

For further guidance, go to:
<http://www.casa.gov.au/licensingregs>http://www.casa.gov.au/licensingregs
CASA has informed me that an applicant for a GPL will need to present their GPC and identification documents, and then meet the following requirements: 
•         CASA Medical
•         FROL;
•         Security Check; and
•         English Language Proficiency Assessment;
Glider pilots already holding a CASA Licence will generally only need to evidence holding a GPC and a current CASA medical. 

Regards

<image001.png>Christopher Thorpe
Executive Manager, Operations | Gliding Federation of Australia (ABN 82 433 264 489) M: +61 4 1447 6151 | E: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] | w: <http://www.g/>www.g<http://glidingaustralia.org/>lidingaustralia.org 

<http://au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/>au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/
From: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders 
Sent: Sunday, 24 August 2014 8:00 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes

Dear Chris,
Could you please explain the legislative background which makes the GPC right now as is, ICAO compliant?
However, on September 2, I wish to convert my GPC into a CASA Glider Pilot License, can you please tell me how to do this? 

Ron Sanders
On 24 August 2014 17:21, Christopher Thorpe <<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: 
To dispel some of the misinformation written about the GPC:


1.       The GFA GPC is ICAO compliant.
2. The holder of a GPC is automatically granted L1 Independent Operator status (refer MOSP2, paragraph 10.5).
3. Foreign pilots can readily convert an overseas issued ICAO compliant licence to the GPC (refer the <http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html>GFA web site for details).
4. This year, Mal Read (CASA) and I have assisted several Australian pilots convert their GPC to an overseas ICAO licence. Granted this was not necessarily an easy thing to do given the current EASA regulatory environment.
5. When CASR Part 61 comes into force on 1 September 2014, Australian pilots wishing to fly overseas can use their GPC to obtain a CASA Glider Pilot Licence to overcome past difficulties with overseas recognition. 

Regards

<image001.png>Christopher Thorpe
Executive Manager, Operations | Gliding Federation of Australia (ABN 82 433 264 489) M: +61 4 1447 6151 | E: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] | w: <http://www.g/>www.g<http://glidingaustralia.org/>lidingaustralia.org 

<http://au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/>au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/
From: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ulrich Stauss 
Sent: Sunday, 24 August 2014 11:32 AM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes

Picking up from Michael Scutter:
Will overseas pilots holding an ICAO compliant (glider) pilots license and an FAI Sporting license still require a GPC to fly in Australian competitions? Perhaps more importantly, do the insurances recognise both the FAI Sporting license and the GPC for their purposes?
Or are there provisions in place to recognise the FAI Sporting license as equivalent/superior? If so does this also apply to an Australian pilot holding an FAI Sporting license but not a GPC? (What if this pilot also holds an overseas ICAO compliant (glider) pilots license?)
Will the points of a competitor in an Australian National Championship who only holds a GPC but no FAI Sporting license be recognised for the FAI/IGC Pilot Rankings?
To my knowledge the GPC is not ICAO compliant nor recognised anywhere overseas. I guess that will have to wait until the CASA GPL finally gets off the ground. The way I read the MOSP, the GPC in practice merely means that the holder has a C certificate and may have been trained according to the ‘new’ rearranged syllabus and to Level 1 independent operator standard (but does not necessarily hold the L1 IO rating!).
In the meantime our pilots who want to compete overseas are still on their own in the battle with foreign bureaucracies to obtain an ICAO compliant license from wherever this is easier or quicker in their circumstances (UK, US, Czech Republic…) on the basis of the C certificate – googood luck to anyone attempting that based on a GPC. 

Wasn’t that the primary issue that the GPC was supposed to fix?

The emperor has no clothes!

Ulrich
From: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of pam 
Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014 10:35
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses

Records:
You must have an FAI Sporting Licence before you make a record attempt. One pilot this year had a record claim rejected because he had no Sporting Licence. You pay $10 and renew every 2 years. A pilot can only hold one Sporting Licence, so for example if you already hold one issued by Australia, you fly records and International Competitions as a representative of Australia. You can’t compete in the French Team, if you hold an FAI Sporting Licence issued by Australia. In other words, the FAI Sporting Licence is dependent on your Nationality or Residence. 
Competitions:
The use of the word ‘competition licence’ is confusing, when it refers to the FAI Sporting Licence. It was a requirement of the insurance company providing liability insurance to competition organisers, as evidence of pilots’ competence, and perhaps in everyday speech it sounds simpler to say ‘competition licence’. It appears now that the insurer is happy to accept a GPC for competitions in Australia. 
Pam
From: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter Champness 
Sent: Thursday, 21 August 2014 7:33 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses
I agree with the OPs Panel. The International Competition Licence was never necessary and should not have been adopted for domestic competition. The Glider Pilot Certificate has some merit and I personally am very happy to adopt that for our competitions. It is a lot more comprehensive than the old Silver badge.
What happens if you fly a potential record flight and you don't have an International Competition Licence. Can you apply for it retrospectively?
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Adam Woolley <<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: 
A timely question Don,

I think the comp license has now been replaced by a GPC.


Cheers,
WPP
> On 21 Aug 2014, at 18:28, Don Woodward <<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: 
>
>
> G'day all, Jen and I have just spent the last hour searching the web for the address to send your competition license to to get it renewed but we've failed. Can someone please assist and remind me of the postal address? 
>
> Regards
> Don Woodward
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