This from the UK rec soaring chat line.
More info
Just shows me again that those who have been able to fly an EU
registered glider in the EU on their BGA GPL have just "gotten away
with it" If the insurance companies were up on this I wonder what
would happen when Aus guys crash EU registered gliders?? it would
only take one event for the insurer to not pay up.
*****************
Ron Sanders' question raises a few issues. Even if he is a UK national
if his country of residence is Australia then he may not be deemed
"resident or established" (see below Part FCL Annex III) in the EU. So
converting his UK gliding experience (forget the BGA GPL which was
a "try-on" to persuade the French to accept our non-state issued
qualifications about 14 years ago) may not be possible.
In the European ("EASA") Part FCL, there is provision for non-
European - in terms of residency - pilots to visit Europe and fly EU
registered gliders with their own national (State and ICAO compliant
/ issued) pilot licences. The wording is in Annex III to Part FCL, paras
1 and 2. In essence there is a process of validation of "foreign"
licences which can take place once only for a period not > one year.
This period may only be extended once, after which the pilot needs
to obtain an EU licence to fly.
At Europe Air Sports we lodged a request some two years ago for this
rule to be relaxed because the administrative logistics for someone
resident in a non-EU country to get an EU licence either from a
distance or at the beginning of a short term visit to Europe for
holiday, competition flying or whatever, would effectively preclude
them from flying in Europe. This point is now on the list of many
changes which the European Commission is now progressing as part
of the new approach under the umbrella of the GA Safety Strategy.
I expect a change to come about as part of a wider group of changes
linked to the recent announcement of a deferral of the mandatory
date for having an EU licence to fly "EASA gliders" from April 2015
and April 2018.
DGR / EAS
On 25 August 2014 18:30, Michael Scutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thank you Konrad.
> I would like to take the liberty of converting what you just wrote into
> Australian...
>
> It is all a crock of shit!
>
> I apologise to all or any I have offended. I'll make sure I give myself ten
> strokes of the water proof lash I keep in the shower for exactly these sorts
> of circumstances.
>
> Michael
>
> On 25 Aug 2014, at 5:17 pm, "Konrad Maierhofer"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> This is my contribution to more confusion about EASA and ICAO licenses
> (don't read if you are after information about a competition license):
>
> I started with aviation with Ultra Lights in Germany, learned soaring in
> Australia tried to convert my (at that time) non-existing Australian license
> to a German Gliding license. No way! I wound up to get a new license in
> Europe. I opted to get my gliding license in Austria as this allowed me to
> do my training in my own German registered glider which was by far cheaper
> than to do it in Germany. Germany and also Austria requires endorsements for
> different launch methods (winch, aerotow, self launch and sustainers - not
> including TMGs=touring motor gliders like a Motorfalke or Super Dimona). In
> order to fly a tug in Australia I also started to get a PPL(A) (at that time
> ICAO PPL(A) JAR-FCL) which I thought would enable me to fly an Australian GA
> registered tug - wrong.
>
> ICAO is not the same as EASA. EASA will replace or supersede the national
> European rules. EASA is not completely in place in whole Europe. Like in my
> case my German ICAO PPL(A) JAR-FCL license was already converted to an EASA
> PPL(A) JAR-FCL.
> My Austrian ICAO-license will not be converted to an EASA license in the
> next three years as Austria decided to postpone the transition to a later
> date. But in the next (I think) three years all European countries will
> convert all local licenses into European licenses. Some will be upgraded to
> something better some will have less rights. For gliding there will be two
> licenses available LAPL and SPL. LAPL and SPL have different requirements
> for the aviation medical. LAPL has less equirements but is only valid in
> Europe. SPL needs a Class II Medical and is again a proper ICAO license that
> is valid world wide in ICAO countries.
>
> If the option of getting a British license is still available then this
> might be the best way to get an ICAO license sooner or later. Why not taking
> advantage or the Common Wealth and the courtesy of BGA! Then when time is
> ready you will get the license converted to a SPL. Downside is that you will
> need a Class II Medical when you get to Europe. If your health is OK then
> this shouldn't be a problem but will cost several hundred Euros. Depending
> on your age it needs to be renewed every two years. This might make only
> sense if you intend to fly in Europe and hire a foreign registered aircraft.
> Sometimes with hiring a glider in Europe it is not only a question of
> getting permission of the CASA equivalent it is also get a valid insurance
> for the pilot.
>
> To comment on Michael: I think there is no good and better-All is too
> confusing and everyone can do better. GFA & CASA for sure is ways easier to
> deal with than a LBA and it is not simply only LBA now we will get EASA
> (Europe) in the top then comes LBA (Gemany-federal), Luftamt for each state
> and Luftsport Verband for competitions and sports aviation. This hierarchy
> reflects only Germany and every European country has local rules. Enough for
> today - I'm getting confused too.
>
> Konrad
>
> ________________________________
> Von: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von Michael
> Scutter
> Gesendet: Montag, 25. August 2014 07:20
> An: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Betreff: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes
>
> Bak in the good days (2011), Matthew got a British licence based on his "c"
> certificate and a recent scan of his log book showing he had done more than
> 5 hours flying in a year.
>
> The CEO of the BGA, also sent a copy of a letter from the BAA (British
> equivalent of CASA). It said the BGA was higher than required to an ICO
> licence.
>
> I sent the letter to the LBA (the German equivalent of CASA) along with a
> copy of his BGA licence.
>
> LBA responded " you can fly in Germany. The person registering Matt for the
> comp, looked at the letter from the LBA and said no problems. If they say
> you can, then you can.
>
> The system we have not, surely could be better, like this example.
>
> Michael get
>
> On 25 Aug 2014, at 1:37 pm, Mike Borgelt <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> You are of course correct.
>
> It is ridiculous. Not only that, I suspect ICAO never envisaged a
> qualification for recognition by another country that wasn't to be
> recognised in the holder's home country.
>
> If I was a bureaucrat working for EASA or the FAA licencing departments I
> sure wouldn't recognise one of those. I'd reckon it was "intent to deceive".
>
> Come to think of it, from a conversation I had a long time ago with an FAA
> general aviation office employee they regard recognition of foreign
> qualifications as being contingent on said qualification allowing you to fly
> legally in your home country.
>
> Oops.
>
> Mike
>
> At 12:47 PM 25/08/2014, you wrote:
>
> For what it's worth, a credential that can't be used in Australia reflects
> badly on Australian pilots.
>
> There is this extra step (paper work), that Australia does not recognise,
> but expects other countries to. It's not funny, it's ridiculous.
>
> Michael
>
> On 25 Aug 2014, at 7:04 am, "Christopher McDonnell"
> <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Well, what will be needed re paperwork to fly a glider out from under the
> umbrella in the rain? <wlEmoticon-smile[1].png>
>
>
>
> From: Christopher Thorpe
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 9:13 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes
>
> Ron
>
> Refer to CASR 61 http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2014C00046:
>
> 61.1510 Privileges of glider pilot licences
> 61.1520 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot
> licences—recennt experience
> 61.1525 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot
> licences—flighht review
> 61.1530 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot
> licences—mediccal certificates
> 61.1535 Limitations on exercise of privileges of glider pilot
> licences—carriiage of documents
>
> For what it’s worth, a CASA GPL only exists to assist GFA members wanting
> to have their Australian qualifications recognised overseas. It will not
> allow a person to fly gliders in Australia outside the umbrella of the GFA.
>
> Regards
>
> <image001.png>Christopher Thorpe
> Executive Manager, Operations | Gliding Federation of Australia (ABN 82 433
> 264 489)
> M: +61 4 1447 6151 | E: [email protected] | w: www.g
> lidingaustralia.org
>
> au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/
>
>
>
> From: [email protected] [
> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders
> Sent: Sunday, 24 August 2014 8:59 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes
>
> Thank you.
> In the references listed I can not find the privileges and responsibilities
> of the CASA GPL??
> ron
>
> On 24 August 2014 18:51, Christopher Thorpe <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ron
>
> The GFA GPC is compliant in that it meets the standards specified in Annex
> 1 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation. The regulatory
> authority is in Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998, subparagraphs
> 61.1540 (2)(a),(b),& (c).
>
> CASA has produced a guidance booklet at:
> http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100191/part61booklet.pdf
>
> For further guidance, go to:
> http://www.casa.gov.au/licensingregs
>
> CASA has informed me that an applicant for a GPL will need to present
> their GPC and identification documents, and then meet the following
> requirements:
> • CASA Medical
> • FROL;
> • Security Check; and
> • English Language Proficiency Assessment;
>
> Glider pilots already holding a CASA Licence will generally only need to
> evidence holding a GPC and a current CASA medical.
>
> Regards
>
> <image001.png>Christopher Thorpe
> Executive Manager, Operations | Gliding Federation of Australia (ABN 82 433
> 264 489)
> M: +61 4 1447 6151 | E: [email protected] | w: www.g
> lidingaustralia.org
>
> au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/
>
>
>
> From: [email protected] [
> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders
> Sent: Sunday, 24 August 2014 8:00 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> Could you please explain the legislative background which makes the GPC
> right now as is, ICAO compliant?
>
> However, on September 2, I wish to convert my GPC into a CASA Glider Pilot
> License, can you please tell me how to do this?
>
> Ron Sanders
>
> On 24 August 2014 17:21, Christopher Thorpe <[email protected]> wrote:
> To dispel some of the misinformation written about the GPC:
>
>
> 1. The GFA GPC is ICAO compliant.
>
> 2. The holder of a GPC is automatically granted L1 Independent
> Operator status (refer MOSP2, paragraph 10.5).
>
> 3. Foreign pilots can readily convert an overseas issued ICAO
> compliant licence to the GPC (refer the GFA web site for details).
>
> 4. This year, Mal Read (CASA) and I have assisted several Australian
> pilots convert their GPC to an overseas ICAO licence. Granted this was not
> necessarily an easy thing to do given the current EASA regulatory
> environment.
>
> 5. When CASR Part 61 comes into force on 1 September 2014, Australian
> pilots wishing to fly overseas can use their GPC to obtain a CASA Glider
> Pilot Licence to overcome past difficulties with overseas recognition.
>
> Regards
>
> <image001.png>Christopher Thorpe
> Executive Manager, Operations | Gliding Federation of Australia (ABN 82 433
> 264 489)
> M: +61 4 1447 6151 | E: [email protected] | w: www.g
> lidingaustralia.org
>
> au.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-thorpe/25/2b8/b4b/
>
>
> From: [email protected] [
> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ulrich
> Stauss
> Sent: Sunday, 24 August 2014 11:32 AM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses - the emperor has no clothes
>
> Picking up from Michael Scutter:
>
> Will overseas pilots holding an ICAO compliant (glider) pilots license and
> an FAI Sporting license still require a GPC to fly in Australian
> competitions?
> Perhaps more importantly, do the insurances recognise both the FAI Sporting
> license and the GPC for their purposes?
>
> Or are there provisions in place to recognise the FAI Sporting license as
> equivalent/superior?
> If so does this also apply to an Australian pilot holding an FAI Sporting
> license but not a GPC? (What if this pilot also holds an overseas ICAO
> compliant (glider) pilots license?)
>
> Will the points of a competitor in an Australian National Championship who
> only holds a GPC but no FAI Sporting license be recognised for the FAI/IGC
> Pilot Rankings?
>
> To my knowledge the GPC is not ICAO compliant nor recognised anywhere
> overseas. I guess that will have to wait until the CASA GPL finally gets off
> the ground. The way I read the MOSP, the GPC in practice merely means that
> the holder has a C certificate and may have been trained according to the
> ‘new’ rearranged syllabus and to Level 1 independent operator standard
> (but does not necessarily hold the L1 IO rating!).
>
> In the meantime our pilots who want to compete overseas are still on their
> own in the battle with foreign bureaucracies to obtain an ICAO compliant
> license from wherever this is easier or quicker in their circumstances (UK,
> US, Czech Republic…) on the basis of the C certificate – googood luck to
> anyone attempting that based on a GPC.
>
> Wasn’t that the primary issue that the GPC was supposed to fix?
>
> The emperor has no clothes!
>
> Ulrich
>
> From: [email protected] [
> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of pam
> Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014 10:35
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses
>
> Records:
> You must have an FAI Sporting Licence before you make a record attempt. One
> pilot this year had a record claim rejected because he had no Sporting
> Licence. You pay $10 and renew every 2 years.
> A pilot can only hold one Sporting Licence, so for example if you already
> hold one issued by Australia, you fly records and International Competitions
> as a representative of Australia. You can’t compete in the French Team, if
> you hold an FAI Sporting Licence issued by Australia. In other words, the
> FAI Sporting Licence is dependent on your Nationality or Residence.
> Competitions:
> The use of the word ‘competition licence’ is confusing, when it refers
> to the FAI Sporting Licence. It was a requirement of the insurance company
> providing liability insurance to competition organisers, as evidence of
> pilots’ competence, and perhaps in everyday speech it sounds simpler to
> say ‘competition licence’. It appears now that the insurer is happy to
> accept a GPC for competitions in Australia.
> Pam
>
> From: [email protected] [
> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter
> Champness
> Sent: Thursday, 21 August 2014 7:33 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition licenses
>
> I agree with the OPs Panel. The International Competition Licence was
> never necessary and should not have been adopted for domestic competition.
> The Glider Pilot Certificate has some merit and I personally am very happy
> to adopt that for our competitions. It is a lot more comprehensive than the
> old Silver badge.
>
> What happens if you fly a potential record flight and you don't have an
> International Competition Licence. Can you apply for it retrospectively?
>
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Adam Woolley <[email protected] >
> wrote:
> A timely question Don,
>
> I think the comp license has now been replaced by a GPC.
>
>
> Cheers,
> WPP
>
>
>> On 21 Aug 2014, at 18:28, Don Woodward <[email protected] > wrote:
>>
>>
>> G'day all, Jen and I have just spent the last hour searching the web for
>> the address to send your competition license to to get it renewed but we've
>> failed. Can someone please assist and remind me of the postal address?
>>
>> Regards
>> Don Woodward
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