I'm going to chime in, not because I'm a cyclist or even a user of the SW bike
path, but as a photographer and darkroom technician. So? You might ask. From
years of experience of working the old fashioned darkrooms, I can attest that
the eyes, for most people, are quite adaptable to relatively dark surroundings
-
after 15 to 20 minutes. However, if hit with a blast of light in a dark room,
there's as bunch of cussing going on. Especially, if I'm using a strong flash.
So if lights are going to be installed, I might suggest lighting about equal to
the brightness of an indirect bicycle light. You don't need overly strong
airport landing lights to see by. Also, in a darkened area, though not pitch
black which would make this discussion more abstract, eyes can discern the
difference between near black, kind of black and a shade lighter grey. Just
enough contrast to determine shape, maybe form and and most importantly,
movement. Color is not easily seen in the dark because human eyes are not
built
to see color in dark conditions. If you feel you have to see detail and color,
then my opinion is that you are overly adapted to bright lights. I think street
engineers, consultants, and electrical companies over do it by using more
lighting than necessary. I am confident that the SW bike path can be lit and be
safe and not ruin the ambience of country lighting in a city environment if a
modicum and consistent level of lighting is used along the dark stretches.
My two cents.
Darryl Jordan
P.S. I nearly hit a muskrat at dusk, but that was along the John Nolan Bike
path
with some sky light to see by. It wasn't a lot but enough to see the shape move
in front of me. I saved the muskrat's life but my trike didn't handle the
evasive maneuver as well.
________________________________
From: Mary Mullen <[email protected]>
To: Robert F. Nagel <[email protected]>; Robbie Webber
<[email protected]>
Cc: Bikies <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 4:10:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Bikies] Fwd: SW Commuter Bike Path Lighting and WisDOT Wisconsin
Bicycle Facility Design Manual
Re: [Bikies] Fwd: SW Commuter Bike Path Lighting and WisDOT Wisconsin Bicycle
Facility Design Manual I’ve almost hit squirrels and chipmunks quite often on
the SW Path, and a friend of mine got in a wreck on the path when a squirrel
got
itself entwined in his bike wheel on the path. However, I’m not sure that
there
would be much danger from these two animals at night. They are out in the
daytime. And they do dart out.
Mary Mullen
On 9/28/12 3:20 PM, "Robert F. Nagel" <[email protected]> wrote:
Right, I left that out because it seems to go without saying that my proposal
will not be as bright as yours. But, the question should be is whether it's
bright enough or a whole lot brighter than nothing. There's a hornet's nest of
opposition to your proposal because it's too bright. It's overkill. If somebody
would rather take the sidewalk because it's brighter, they'll still have that
option. I've never heard of roadkill on the bikepaths. Are there really
bike-animal accidents happening because of animal dart-outs? The bunnies I've
seen seem to be pretty well-adapted to urban living and don't seem to have a
problem getting across the path safely. And if things keep going the way the
are, there won't be any lights and won't that be a whole lot less safe than
some
subtle lights?
>---
>
>
>Robert F. Nagel, Attorney
>Law Offices of Robert Nagel
>[email protected]
>www.nagel-law.com <http://www.nagel-law.com>
>Thirty on the Square, 10th Floor
>30 W. Mifflin St., Suite 1001
>Madison, WI 53703
>608-255-1501 office
>608-255-1504 fax
>608-438-9501 cell
>
>
>
>On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Robbie Webber <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Robert seems to have left out part of my answer to him:
>>
>>Besides being more expensive and possibly prone to damage, whether
>>intentional
>>or not,
>>
>>3. This area has basically no ambient light (from streetlights, houses,
>>businesses, etc.) Smaller lights would not provide sufficient illumination to
>>light the path and provide a feeling of safety. The path you mention has
>>considerable ambient light from other sources, so lights to illuminate the
>>path
>>and general area are not as necessary.
>>
>>Robert had mentioned the path that runs along the Yahara River. That area has
>>considerable ambient light: businesses, street lights, lights in the mooring
>>area on the river, park lights towards Lake Monona, etc. The SW Path has none
>>of
>>that. This also addresses one of the other suggestions on this list: light
>>the
>>edges of the path.
>>
>>Lighting the ASPHALT or GROUND does not provide the appropriate amount of
>>light
>>to see the area adjacent to the path - where animals or humans may dart out
>>suddenly. We do not use runway lights along the sides of sidewalks and
>>streets.
>>We light the area so that people walking or driving can see the area
>>immediately
>>off the sidewalk or street. This is the reason I use a high-powered light
>>with a
>>broad beam pattern: The LED lights, regardless of how many LEDs they add,
>>simply
>>do not provide the field of view that I want while biking in a dark area. (A
>>broad beam pattern also makes me more visible to drivers on side streets as I
>>approach, but that is a different issue.)
>>
>>Most of our neighbors, friends, and family would freak out if they had to
>>walk
>>down a dark street, why are we assuming that biking or walking down a dark
>>path
>>- with even fewer people around to provide a sense of security - would cause
>>any
>>less stress? Those of you with less-confident bicyclists in your lives should
>>ask those dear ones to go out, alone, after dark on this path. Once your
>>family
>>member, best friend, SO, or other more-timid bicyclist returns from the solo
>>trip, ask him/her how it felt to be on the dark path alone, even with a good
>>light.
>>
>>I think this might change your perspective a bit. I know one male friend
>>definitely changed his mind after thinking of how his wife - definitely not
>>as
>>confident on a bike as he is - would react to that scenario.
>>
>>
>>Robbie Webber
>>Transportation Policy Analyst
>>State Smart Transportation Initiative
>>www.ssti.us <http://www.ssti.us>
>>608-263-9984 (o)
>>[email protected]
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Robert F. Nagel <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>
>>Sounds very sensible to me. What I'm hearing is that the city wants to
>>scatter
>>some bright lights because they think it will be cheaper than the subdued
>>lighting, which would require more poles to provide adequate lighting. They
>>also
>>claim that the shorter poles will be vandalized and hit by snow plows. Why a
>>shorter pole with subdued light would be more likely to be vandalized than a
>>taller pole with bright light that the neighbors hate is totally beyond me.
>>And,
>>I don't think anybody would object to incorporating flags in the design to
>>give
>>additional notice to the snow plow drivers.
>>>
>>>---
>>>
>>>
>>>Robert F. Nagel, Attorney
>>>Law Offices of Robert Nagel
>>>[email protected]
>>>www.nagel-law.com <http://www.nagel-law.com>
>>>Thirty on the Square, 10th Floor
>>>30 W. Mifflin St., Suite 1001
>>>Madison, WI 53703
>>>608-255-1501 <tel:608-255-1501> office
>>>608-255-1504 <tel:608-255-1504> fax
>>>608-438-9501 <tel:608-438-9501> cell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:43 PM, George Perkins <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>>
>>>When I originally wondered (on this list, to my Alder, and to the City
>>>project
>>>site) why the city hasn’t considered a design that follows the DOT
>>>guidelines
>>>for lighting a bike and pedestrian path, I never really did get a
>>>satisfactory
>>>answer. The City may have had this discussion internally, but for whatever
>>>reason has not made it a public discussion. If the SW path is going to be
>>>given
>>>lighting, then let’s do it right. The powerpoint presentation on the project
>>>web
>>>site only off-handedly indicates bollard style lamp posts are a maintenance
>>>problem, but doesn’t substantiate that concern with facts and figures. If
>>>there
>>>are valid reasons why DOT lighting guidelines don’t make sense from an
>>>engineering (physical and social), I’d like to hear them and the city should
>>>lobby to have the DOT guidelines updated accordingly. Perhaps a good
>>>lighting
>>>design would cost more and budgets are tight. Let’s not do it wrong just to
>>>spend the money in this year’s budget and wind up with an inferior (or
>>>unsafe)
>>>result. If doing it right costs more, maybe the path can be lit in stages,
>>>do
>>>what you can with the money on hand, leave the rest until later?
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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