Hi, Shaun. I think this was left open so that the applications would be more portible to multiple operating systems. What they did not do is make known or properly inform new programmers that certain specific security considerations will have to be made upon redistrobution of the application. Since I learned dotnet via amature means I was unaware of things people with more professional education might have learned or discussed. I only became aware of the issue when discussing things over with David Lant and Justin. Once I was aware that these other security things had to be done I sort of fell out of favor with dotnet over this issue.
shaun everiss wrote: > I just wish people like microsoft thought about that before releasing > things. > Its not happened to me but there are people I know locally that do not > update anything, except their antivirus deffinitions and spyware > protection database. > The reason is that updates crash things. > And you have to reformat. > Maybe not true but it makes me think. > If there were more people with your atatude we wouldn't have these > problems. > There are a few things that I am apposed to. > 1. prices going up, and a software program costing more than it should. > And activation, as it requires personal info. > What happens while its going over the net and what happens if someone > hacks into the server the info is on? > Same with cookies even though most are safe. > The other is these visual graphics. > Not accessible and they are just php which can be hacked, language is > free. > I know this will never happen with the blindness gaming industry but > the other thing is a program saying we are free but we need to put > adds on your system so we can advertise so you can pay. > Thats fine, programs like getright and eudora do this buy hosting the > adds on their own servers, and some stuff is done through google. > But its when the adds are from spyware programs. > Fine if they support the programs, but usualy not. > Then when you kill the programs, you have to kill the spyware then you > find yourself subscribed to spammy scammy things, porn and getting > stupid things charged to your credit cards. > > Another thing is when standards are not up to scratch and then the > prices are high as. > Its a shame that with some programs you can't take peoples word at all. > And then there are programs that are not designed right and totaly > trash the system because sertain windows files are blocked, and I > could go on with this but will not. > At 02:08 p.m. 21/02/2006, you wrote: > >Hi, Will. > >All I can say in my own defense was I wasn't aware of this security > >issue when I began designing titles for USA Games. My soul interest was > >writing the games, and figuring I could concintrate on security later. > >Couple that with a fact I normally write apps for Unix type operating > >systems, and I was writing my first serious Windows applications in > >dotnet I didn't know the cons of dotnet development that I know now. > >Now that I know I am in a position to correct that error before someone > >has a chance to take advantage of my previous mistakes. > > > > > > > > > >will wrote: > >> hi > >> > >> i'd just release the game now and if people hack it so what, it gonna > >> happen > >> that the way of life > >> as liam says, honest people will buy it, dishonest, won't > >> To be fair this security issue should have been checked out before > >> development, if this was an issue with dot net > >> not flaming just pointing out and commenting > >> regards, will > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: audyssey: USA Games news. > >> > >> > >> > Hi, Shaun. > >> > yes, that is correct. we have to start over from scratch if we > switch to > >> > C++. > >> > > >> > > >> > shaun everiss wrote: > >> >> so this means you need to redo the usagames engine to then? > >> >> At 08:58 a.m. 21/02/2006, you wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Hi, Shaun. > >> >>> I really can't even begin to make a guess at when the updated > STFC 1.0 > >> >>> would be ready. As you might guess some code can be directly > copied or > >> >>> salvaged, and some of it has to be rewritten do to C++ specific > >> language > >> >>> requirements. > >> >>> One thing right now is I don't have the USA Games engine now that > >> it has > >> >>> the same security issues as the game so everything is upside > down, and > >> >>> needs to be rethought from the ground up. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> shaun everiss wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> I understand, gmagames have a system hardware id bassed > system, and > >> >>>> others have simular id based systems. > >> >>>> Just don't go the way of ms with activation punnishing the lagit > >> guys > >> >>>> thats all. > >> >>>> Also if you decide to make your data files non hackable, there are > >> >>>> those of us that contribute sound and like to look at our sounds > >> we put > >> >>>> in places. > >> >>>> When will the stfc port be ready in the new c++ code? > >> >>>> At 09:53 p.m. 20/02/2006, you wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> Hi, Shaun. > >> >>>>> While it is true there is no way for a developer to absolutely > >> secure > >> >>>>> a > >> >>>>> product from theft, cracks, and piracy there are ways to make it > >> >>>>> harder > >> >>>>> and minimize the chances. > >> >>>>> If you think of it this way you can't completely secure your > >> home from > >> >>>>> burglers, but you will do whatever is necessary to make it > harder. > >> >>>>> Before you leave you check the windows to make sure they are > >> down and > >> >>>>> locked, lock the doors, and if you have one arm the security > panel. > >> >>>>> Noone I know of in a high crime neighborhood leaves for work > >> with the > >> >>>>> back door unlocked, an open window for people to crawl in to, or > >> owns > >> >>>>> a > >> >>>>> security panel and decides to leave it off. They would at > least do > >> >>>>> those > >> >>>>> security measures to make sure their home was safer than it would > >> >>>>> otherwise have been. > >> >>>>> As for piracy in this comunity sad to say, but I recently > found out > >> >>>>> there were an alarming number of accessible gamers pirating GMA's > >> >>>>> Shades > >> >>>>> of Doom 1.0. Even though there were plenty of honest gamers > like me > >> >>>>> who > >> >>>>> baught their copies GMA and my company USA Games must protect our > >> >>>>> games > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >from those less than honest people as best we can. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> shaun everiss wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> Well I suppose you know what you are doing. > >> >>>>>> Its however good to note that nothing is secure, as you can't > >> secure > >> >>>>>> for everything and or anything. > >> >>>>>> I would never hack a program though. > >> >>>>>> I am not like that. > >> >>>>>> At 08:55 p.m. 20/02/2006, you wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Hi, Matt. > >> >>>>>>> Thanks. I only wish I had taken more time to research security > >> >>>>>>> before I > >> >>>>>>> began writing STFC. If I had known how security week the final > >> >>>>>>> product > >> >>>>>>> would be I would have of course done things much different. > As it > >> >>>>>>> stands > >> >>>>>>> I can not release the game as is, as any reasonably compatent > >> hacker > >> >>>>>>> could crack the game in a matter of minutes which is not > >> exceptable. > >> >>>>>>> However, on the bright side of this I am finding out some good > >> >>>>>>> alternatives to doing things and if I choose that route USA > Games > >> >>>>>>> not > >> >>>>>>> only will be more secure, but there are some extra bonuses > >> involved. > >> >>>>>>> I am currently strongly thinking of converting all projects to > >> C++. > >> >>>>>>> Not > >> >>>>>>> only would I have a better security for the game there is > better > >> >>>>>>> documentation for writing game scripting engines, better > >> support for > >> >>>>>>> SAPI tts engines, etc.... So this might have a bright side > to it. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> matt wrote: > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> That is bad news. I must commend you though for being a game > >> >>>>>>>> creator who > >> >>>>>>>> comes out and says when something is going wrong. I do not > mean > >> >>>>>>>> anything bad > >> >>>>>>>> about anyone else just saying that is a cool thing to say. I > >> wish > >> >>>>>>>> you the > >> >>>>>>>> best of luck in fixing the problem. Later, Matt > >> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>>>>>> From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >>>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> > >> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:25 PM > >> >>>>>>>> Subject: audyssey: USA Games news. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> USA Games News > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> 2/20/2006 > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> STFC Release in Doubt > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Greetings gamers, > >> >>>>>>>>> We at USA Games have some good and bad news for our fans of > >> STFC. > >> >>>>>>>>> The > >> >>>>>>>>> good news the game is practically complete and is pretty > >> reliable. > >> >>>>>>>>> The > >> >>>>>>>>> bad news is that recently we have discovered some security > >> issues > >> >>>>>>>>> with > >> >>>>>>>>> the product which is of grave concern to me inparticular. > As a > >> >>>>>>>>> result > >> >>>>>>>>> this security issue could set development back for months, > >> and at > >> >>>>>>>>> the > >> >>>>>>>>> least a few weeks. > >> >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, the nature of the issue forces USA Games to > >> choose > >> >>>>>>>>> between two options. the first option is to pay a quite a > >> sum of > >> >>>>>>>>> money > >> >>>>>>>>> to purchase licenses for pro grade security applications. The > >> >>>>>>>>> second > >> >>>>>>>>> option USA Games rewrites STFC in a language in which this > >> >>>>>>>>> security hole > >> >>>>>>>>> is not a factor. As USA Games does not currently have the > funds > >> >>>>>>>>> for the > >> >>>>>>>>> former choice it will likely come down to the second choice. > >> >>>>>>>>> However, > >> >>>>>>>>> after just completing the game I am not in any mood to start > >> over > >> >>>>>>>>> and > >> >>>>>>>>> port the current game to something new. > >> >>>>>>>>> As a result of this security discovery USA Games is haulting > >> >>>>>>>>> production > >> >>>>>>>>> on all of our titles until a suitable security can be > >> devised. It > >> >>>>>>>>> is > >> >>>>>>>>> possible some projects may have to be rewritten from > >> scratch, or > >> >>>>>>>>> at the > >> >>>>>>>>> very least wait until USA Games has enough funds to complete > >> them > >> >>>>>>>>> using > >> >>>>>>>>> pro grade security software. > >> >>>>>>>>> I hope that in the future USA Games will be able to bring > some > >> >>>>>>>>> truly > >> >>>>>>>>> awesome titles to you all, but for the time being we will be > >> >>>>>>>>> returning > >> >>>>>>>>> to research and experiment. Once we have something we are > sure > >> >>>>>>>>> will work > >> >>>>>>>>> for us we will continue production of our titles. > >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, and happy gaming. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> to leave send a blank Email to: > >> >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>>>> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>>>> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>>>> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> to leave send a blank Email to: > >> >>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>>> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>>> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> >>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>>> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> to leave send a blank Email to: > >> >>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> >>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>>> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>> to leave send a blank Email to: > >> >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> to leave send a blank Email to: > >> >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> to leave send a blank Email to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> to leave send a blank Email to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> to leave send a blank Email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> to go nomail send a blank message to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > to leave send a blank Email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > to go nomail send a blank message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> to leave send a blank Email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> to go nomail send a blank message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >> > >> > >> > >> SPONSORED LINKS > >> Visually impaired product > >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Visually+impaired+product&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=VPIm_ssPSG5c4KoEkDwyyA > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Visually+impaired+product&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=VPIm_ssPSG5c4KoEkDwyyA>> > > > >> Visually impaired > >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Visually+impaired&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=-2iuidI2uo71hovbr5tgGg > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Visually+impaired&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=-2iuidI2uo71hovbr5tgGg>> > > > >> Computer game design schools > >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+game+design+schools&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=4_wHdQhjgMzl2dVNjfdYrg > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+game+design+schools&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=4_wHdQhjgMzl2dVNjfdYrg>> > > > >> > >> Computer games > >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+games&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=lEytAuoy3zDHt_rUdgxW1A > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+games&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=lEytAuoy3zDHt_rUdgxW1A>> > > > >> Computer game magazine > >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+game+magazine&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=_ldmWpxT-POO-lnvfAX2PA > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+game+magazine&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=_ldmWpxT-POO-lnvfAX2PA>> > > > >> Computer chess games > >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+chess+games&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=hli5UanEk7GxG0xMy5qE8Q > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+chess+games&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=hli5UanEk7GxG0xMy5qE8Q>> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > >> > >> * Visit your group "blindgamers > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blindgamers>" on the web. > >> > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >to leave send a blank Email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >to go nomail send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > to leave send a blank Email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > to go nomail send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Visually impaired product > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Visually+impaired+product&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=VPIm_ssPSG5c4KoEkDwyyA> > > Visually impaired > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Visually+impaired&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=-2iuidI2uo71hovbr5tgGg> > > Computer game design schools > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+game+design+schools&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=4_wHdQhjgMzl2dVNjfdYrg> > > > Computer games > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+games&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=lEytAuoy3zDHt_rUdgxW1A> > > Computer game magazine > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+game+magazine&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=_ldmWpxT-POO-lnvfAX2PA> > > Computer chess games > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+chess+games&w1=Visually+impaired+product&w2=Visually+impaired&w3=Computer+game+design+schools&w4=Computer+games&w5=Computer+game+magazine&w6=Computer+chess+games&c=6&s=162&.sig=hli5UanEk7GxG0xMy5qE8Q> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "blindgamers > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blindgamers>" on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > to leave send a blank Email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can contact the list owners/moderators by Emailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] to go nomail send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] change "nomail" to "normal" to resume messages. Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blindgamers/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
