----- Original Message -----
From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Brin-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Child Soldiers RE: This week in the Middle East



> >Sorry, I just posted this question again, I'm glad you answered it. So,
it
> >appears that you do say that Israel has to accept being an Arab state.
Is
> >that true?
>
> That would depend on your definition of "Arab state". I would not consider
> Israel to be an Arab state simply because part of the population is Arab.

An Arab state is a state that is controlled by an Arab government.  The
bottom line is that, if Israel allows the right of return as part of a peace
deal, they must give up keeping Israel as a majority Jewish state.  Would
you be willing to open the borders of the Netherlands to all comers?  No
limits on immigration?

>
> >If it is, then do you honestly expect that the Arabs, once they get
control
> >of the government, will actually worry about the civil rights of the
Jews?
>
> Arabs and Jews have their roots in the same area of the world and
therefore
> have equal rights to live there. If the Arab population of Israel becomes
a
> majority and gets some control of the government, well, that is democracy
> at work. However, in a multi-party system, the Arabs would have to be a
> *vast* majority of the population before they can get full control of the
> government.

That simply isn't true.  Parties, that between them, get 51% of the vote can
form a government in a multi-party state.  One party with 51% can also do
that.  Can you give an example where a coalition goverment could not form in
a multiparty system when they had less than, say, 60% of the votes?
Particularly, in a government with porportional representation?

>
>
> >Basically, what you are saying is that Israel _must_ cease to exist in
order
> >to be moral.
>
> I reread my message over and over to see how you would get that idea. I
failed.

Because it is the logical cosequence of your suggestion.  Here's a group of
people who were slaughtered by the millions in Europe last century.  Zionism
was formed out of the prophetic realization, in the 19th century, that
Europe was not safe for Jews.  Now, you are proposing a settlement that
would allow Israel to have an Arab majority of voters. Israels only hope
would be for enough Arabs to _always_ vote for
Jewish candidates.  My guess, given the nature of Arab politics, is that
there would be accidents among the Arabs that did that.  Further, the
history of Arab goverment would tend to indicate that, once Arabs gained
control of the military, the democracy would end.

I would imagine that at least some of Jewish people who could emmegrate to
the US  would, exasperating the problem. Further, the variation in birth
rates would further compond difficulties.


Finally, I'll admit that it is within the realm of possibility that I would
be wrong.  It is possible that, after saying they will destroy Israel since
its first existance, after being fed vicious lies about the Jews their whole
lives, the Arabs will honestly allow Israel to stay a democracy with civil
rights for the minority of Jews or that the Palestinians will be happy with
just the West Bank and Gaza and will not want the income support afforded
citizens of the state of Israel, and will not want Israel to be part of the
Palestine they alway wanted.  Would you insist that this is the only
possible outcome?  Would you be willing to bet your, Sonja's and Tom's lives
on it?  That's what you are asking the citizens of Israel to do.

Dan M.

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