On Tuesday 02 April 2002 20:21, you wrote: > Careful. Please don't attribute to me like that and cut off the part > where it was explained that I was "translating" the words of someone > else (Trent). > > On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:59:26PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated Sun, 31 Mar 2002 9:18:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > Land is very important to the state. Because of their religion, > > > Zionists MUST try to claim or conquer all of Palestine and make > > > Palestine part of Israel > >
And Eric made a very succinct restatement of my position. I basically endorse it. I think of modern Zionism two ways. 1) The establishment of a (predominantly) Jewish state ... any state that can be a national homeland for the Jews. Note: This was the *secular* Zionist movement around the turn of the century. 2) The establishment of a predominantly Jewish state in the region know as Palestine. This state must include Jerusalem and ideally would include all or most of the Jewish or Hebrew homeland as specified in Jewish scripture; that is, the Bible. This is what the Zionist movements of the 19th and 20th centuries actually accompished. >> Who are the "Zionists". A Zionist is anyone who thinks that Jews should have their own nation state. Incidentally, I am a Zionist by this definition. >> Zionism is (was) a political movement amoung jews. It is not only a movement among Jews. There are Judeophilic Chistian and secular Zionists. There are also Judeophobic Christian and secular Zionists. (As in, lets exile all the Jews and send them to Israel.) >> Not all jews are Zionists. This is true. Anti-Zionist and a-Zionist Jews are definitely a minority though. At present I suspect they can be treated as statistcially irrelevant. >> Not all Israeli's are Zionists. Well yes, some are Arab. It is a form of self-hatred to be Israeli, Jewish and a-Zionist. Israel *IS* the modern incarnation of the Zionist project. In my understanding: Israel *IS* Zionism. (at least at present) > > Certainly not all Israeli's believe that their religion > > (Zionism??) requires that they control all of Palestine. Well, I never meant to say or imply that Zionism is a religion _per se_. However, for many Christians and Jews Zionism is a tennent of their faith. My understanding is that only a minority of Jews, Israelis, or even of Zionists in the broadest sense think that the Zionist state (_de facto_ Israel) must contain all of Palestine. However, an influential minority of Religious Zionists (both Jewish and Christian) think that it should. Furthermore, they seem to believe that it is a religious obligation to struggle to encompass all of Palestine in a Zionist state--that is, Israel. > >In fact my > > sense is that many Israeli's are secular and don't give a hoot about > > what Zionists want. That is, about what literalist religious Zionists want. You will have a hard time convincing me that (virtually) all Jewish Israelis are not in some sense Zionists. >> It is true that there are religous and/or right > > wing groups that espouse some version of what you have set forth but > > this does not represent the inevitable will of the people of Israel. No. But if one imagines a geographic Palestine free of those troublesome Arabs who think the land is theirs because in contravention of the Jews sacred mythological deed to the place they and their ancestors have been squatting there for upwards of 1500 years. <main-point>Well, if one imagines a Palestine without Palestinans, then it would be *ideal* if Israel included all of modern geographic Palestine.</main-point> > > Who are the "Zionists". Zionism is (was) a political movement > > amoung jews. Not all jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli's are > > Zionists. Certainly not all Israeli's believe that their religion > > (Zionism??) requires that they control all of Palestine. In fact my > > sense is that many Israeli's are secular and don't give a hoot about > > what Zionists want. It is true that there are religous and/or right > > wing groups that espouse some version of what you have set forth but > > this does not represent the inevitable will of the people of Israel.
