> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Trent Shipley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: woensdag 17 april 2002 17:36
> Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Onderwerp: Re: Resolved: War is immoral.
> Look, everyone but Jeroen will admit that comparing a policy of exile
> for all Palestinians who will not accept Israeli citizenship is *not*
> directly comparable to the more egregious NAZI policy of genocide.
I am not comparing deportation of Palestinians to genocide on Jews. I am
pointing out that to some extent (deportation), Ilana is promoting doing the
same thing the Nazis did to the Jews. Nowhere in my posts will you find me
saying her plan includes genocide.
> That leaves a few questions.
>
> 0) Are we agreed that the proposal presumes formal annexation of the
> occupied territories to Israel?
No, because Ilana said "nearby Arab countries", not "the Occupied
Territories" or "elsewhere in Israel".
> 1) Is the proposal an actual or potential threat to the Zionist
> project? That is, could citizenship for Palestinians in the occupied
> territories--even given a need for a loyaty oath--result in an Arab
> majority in Israel?
Only if a large enough number of Palestinians would accept Israeli
citizenship and move to Israel.
> 1.1) Is an Arab majority in Israel acceptable?
To me, yes. To Sharon et al. -- probably not.
> 2) Would enacting the proposal be tantimount to ethnic cleansing?
Removing large numbers of Palestinians from Israel? Yes, that would
definitely be a form of ethnic cleansing.
> 2.1) Is a choice of loyal Israeli citizenship or exile enough to
> dismiss all charges of ethnic cleansing? (Illana is of the opinion
> that offering this choice means Israel cannot be guilty of ethnic
> cleansing.)
It is not enough. Palestinians should have the right to live in Israel
without formally becoming Israeli citizens.
> 2.2) Is ethnic cleansing necessarilly a crime against humanity?
Yes.
> 2.3) If 2.2, then is ethnic cleansing ever justified?
Never.
> 3) Given responses to serries #2 what should the position of the US and
> other allies of Israel be should it decide to implement such a plan.
They should make it very obvious that they will not accept ethnic cleansing.
I would suggest a total boycott of Israel, both economically and
politically. If Israel refuses to stop their ethnic cleansing, send in UN
forces to protect the Palestinians, arrest the people responsible and have
them tried by the War Crimes Tribunal. Temporarily put Israel under UN
control till a new government has been democratically elected.
> 4) Does confining non-citizen Arabs to refugium or reservations
> *inside* greater Israel constitute ethnic cleansing?
Not necessarily ethnic cleansing, but it should not be difficult to find
some human rights violations in the plan.
> 5) Is a policy of "either loyalty and citizenship or exile" morally
> acceptable for Jewish Zionism. [This is really a question for internal
> Jewish debate.]
>
> 5.1) Is the proposed policy ironic in light of Jewish history. (I say
> it is, quite.)
>
> 5.2) Is the policy analogous to, for example, the Spanish policy
> offered to Musilms and Jews during the Reconquista of Convesion or
> Exile. (Illana says they should not be compared because religious
> conversion is of a different order than citizenship in a secular
> state.)
In both cases, the choice is "accept or get out", so it is definitely
analogous.
> 5.3) If 5.2, then might the comparison still be valid because prior to
> 1650 or 1750 Europeans tightly linked religious creed and national
> citizenship. (This is an allowance for historical relativism and
> change.)
The offer remains the same ("accept or get out") so it would still be a
valid comparison.
Jeroen
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