Trent Shipley <snip> << The establishment of a predominantly Jewish state in the region know as Palestine. This state must include Jerusalem and ideally would include all or most of the Jewish or Hebrew homeland as specified in Jewish scripture; that is, the Bible. This is what the Zionist movements of the 19th and 20th centuries actually accomplished.>>
Ilana <SIGH> Make up your mind, pls - "region known as Palestine" or "according to Bible". According to Bible land of Israel is from Nile river (in Egypt) to Phratt river (in what used to be Mesopotamia). Yes, there is a song - "two sides to Jordan river - this one ours and that one also". No, nobody takes this seriously anymore. >> Who are the "Zionists". Trent A Zionist is anyone who thinks that Jews should have their own nation state. Incidentally, I am a Zionist by this definition. Ilana - Their own state in Zion - in Israel. Uganda supporters are not called Zionists. >> Zionism is (was) a political movement amoung jews. Trent <<It is not only a movement among Jews. There are Judeophilic Chistian and secular Zionists. There are also Judeophobic Christian and secular Zionists. (As in, lets exile all the Jews and send them to Israel.)>> Ilana And Makoya - Zionist Japans and there is Finn village not far from Jerusalem. >> Not all jews are Zionists. Trent <<This is true. Anti-Zionist and a-Zionist Jews are definitely a minority though. At present I suspect they can be treated as statistcially irrelevant.>> Ilana I wish. The Hebrew words are "tongue of pieces" - something small that can decide which side of pieces is havier. I miss words here. :-( >> Not all Israeli's are Zionists. Trent <<Well yes, some are Arab. It is a form of self-hatred to be Israeli, Jewish and a-Zionist. Israel *IS* the modern incarnation of the Zionist project. >> Ilana I don't understand this one. I am a Jew (born to Jewish mother) an Israeli (citizen of Israel & living in Israel) and a Zionist(I believe that I belong here, although I was born in Latvia). Why self-hatred? Trent <<In my understanding: Israel *IS* Zionism. (at least at present) Ilana Continuing existence of country (state?) of Israel is what Zionism is about. > > Certainly not all Israeli's believe that their religion > > (Zionism??) requires that they control all of Palestine. Trent <<Well, I never meant to say or imply that Zionism is a religion _per se_. However, for many Christians and Jews Zionism is a tennent of their faith. My understanding is that only a minority of Jews, Israelis, or even of Zionists in the broadest sense think that the Zionist state (_de facto_ Israel) must contain all of Palestine. However, an influential minority of Religious Zionists (both Jewish and Christian) think that it should. Furthermore, they seem to believe that it is a religious obligation to struggle to encompass all of Palestine in a Zionist state--that is, Israel.>> Ilana It's a bit tricky - religion obligation is to live in Land of Israel not in state of Israel. many of people who used to live in Sinai were ready to replace Israeli citizenship with Egypt one. > >In fact my > > sense is that many Israeli's are secular and don't give a hoot about > > what Zionists want. Tent <<That is, about what literalist religious Zionists want. You will have a hard time convincing me that (virtually) all Jewish Israelis are not in some sense Zionists.>> Ilana All Jewish Israelis are in some sense Zionists and in some sense religious. >> It is true that there are religous and/or right > > wing groups that espouse some version of what you have set forth but > > this does not represent the inevitable will of the people of Israel. Trent <<No. But if one imagines a geographic Palestine free of those troublesome Arabs who think the land is theirs because in contravention of the Jews sacred mythological deed to the place they and their ancestors have been squatting there for upwards of 1500 years. <main-point>Well, if one imagines a Palestine without Palestinans, then it would be *ideal* if Israel included all of modern geographic Palestine.</main-point> Ilana I am so glad geography is brought forth. People, take a look at the map - at the sheer (sp) size of Israel (with or without territories) and 23 Arab countries. Ilana from Israel
