Trent Shipley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <<I disagree. It is unclear to me that Palestinians or Arabs are the agressor party. >>
Ilana << 5 wars started by Arab countries. And it is not clear enough yet?>> Trent <<I think it takes either a very pro-Israeli or very literal interpretation of "to start a war" to attribute *ALL* the Arab-Israeli wars to the Arabs. In particular the wars in the 1950s between Arabs and Israel are generally blammed on Israel.>> Ilana Being Israeli - it's logical me being pro-Israeli isn't it? <G> Israel was attacked - Israel reacted. Of course, we would not have been attacked if we would have lost Independence war, so if you choose to see things this way... <SHRUG> Trent <<Zionism is not racism _per se_. However, it is an *inherently* colonial project. Israel was paid for by expropriating Arab land. >> Ilana <<Israel bought most of it's lands! And Arabs sold it. Some of the land were sold several times.>> <snip> <<In short, Israel looks like a colonial project to me. How could it be otherwise. In 1900 Jews were a minority with no state in Palestine. In 1950 Jews were a majority in enough of Palestine to include more than half the country in the state of Israel. If done by means other than an intentional colonial project either my debating partner is: 1) Deploying special pleading for the Zionist-Israel case. 2) Using a sanitized definition of "colonial project" that amounts to special pleading for Israel. or 3) Is about to argue that Arabs living in Palestine thought that the idea of a Zionist state in Palestine was just a nifty idea and were thus enthusiastic partners in the colonial project. Thus, normal moral assessments of colonialism do not apply.>> Ilana I know, there is no chance that you'll believe me - but last option is true. Arabs actually welcomed Jews here. Trent <<Oh well, that's politics. I'm American. My homeland was paid for by Indians. >> Ilana Who gave land for peace. Just like you think of Israel is moral to do. Trent <<I have no recollection of saying American Indians did anything immoral in trading land for survival.>> Ilana You didn't. Trent <<At least Israeli's get a choice. >> Ilana For which I am thankful Trent <<Furthemore, we can debate whether the occupied territories are land that needs to be *given up*. >> Ilana Will you excuse me that I am not exactly objective in this debate ? :-) Trent <<The USA gave up claims to large parts of what was then British Canada (admittedly to prosecute a war of conquest against Mexico). It also gave independence to colonies in the Philipines and Cuba.>> Ilana Look at the map, pls. USA have enough land, Israel has almost none. Tent <<Too bad the early Zionist pioneers either couldn't or didn't exterminate or neutralize the "aboriginal" Palestinian population. (They had much better luck with Bedoin.)>> Ilana Huh? Early Zionist pioneers had good relationships with they Arab Neighbours as long as they permitted them to do guarding duty and to steal them blind. The day Jewish guarding organization Hashomer was found was the start of open fights. Trent <<Yes... The straighforward sociological analysis would classify the Arab behavior as resistance and hardly helps your case.>> Ilana ??? I, probably, build my sentence wrong. I am trying again. Arabs and Jews were very good neighbors - they visited each other homes and ate there - it counts for very much here, at the Middle East. Arabs guarded Jewish villages. And robbed them. When Jews decided that they *can* guard themselves, Arabs very much didn't like it. I think it is clear now. Ilana wrote also Some of Bedoin are Israeli citizens and even serve in Army. Do you remember when four Israeli soldiers were killed in Gaza? Probably not. Do you remember when Israel, retaliating, destroyed 52 empty hoses and how quickly there were suddenly "refugees" who claimed been thrown our of houses in the middle of the night? You, probably, do. Those four soldiers were from Bedoin unit. Not retaliating would have brought accusation of discrimination and/or independent reaction by the friends of the killed. As things stood they were mad, that they got "only to destroy empty houses" they believed that their friends' blood cost more. Trent asked <<And so your point is, what. There are American Indians and Blacks serving with pride and distinction in the American Army. That has no bearing on how exploitation of Indians and Blacks helped make America rich and racist.>> Ilana You are comparing US history to Israeli's present. My point is that there is such a thing as Israeli Arabs that feel themselves Israeli enough to fight in the lines of Israeli army Palestinian Arabs and Lebanon Arabs and Syria Arabs. Ilana wrote << I agree. Israel made mistake with bedoim - they tried to settle them. Most of the cities stand deserted. It *is* hard to deal with nomad society and meet it's needs.>> Trent <<This is implicitly condescending, and is a clasic trace of a colonial (not to mention racist) mentality. It is also beside the point.>> Ilana You accused Israel with wrong treatment of Bedoim. I agreed. <SHRUG> Facts are facts no matter which emotions you stamp on them. And it also does not matter that intentions were good. Trent wrote <<There are a lot of Palestinians left. They are going to try to reconquer their land.>> Ilana But not from Jordan. Although most of Jordan population are Palestinians. They remember black October too well. They also remember who was fool enough to give them shelter when Jordan king butchered them. In case you don't know - it was Israel. Trent <<Very true, although I can't vouch for what proportion of the Feyyedin returned to Gaza and the West Bank.>> Ilana On which wings? Israel was the only open border. Trent <snip> <<The Spanish and Portuguese reconcquered their homeland from the Moors. The Dutch liberated their homeland from the Spanish. The Irish liberated their homeland from the British (mostly). The Algerians reconquered their homeland from the French. The East Timorese liberated their homeland from the Javanese. In each case a disadvantaged party defeated a stronger party in a war of national liberation. Do I understand you to say that Israel intends to reconquer the rest of Palestine from the more powerfull Palestinian occupiers.>> Ilana I can speak for myself only. And I, Ilana, already wrote you once, that *my* preferable solution is transferring all Palestinians that does not want to be full Israeli citizens to nearby Arab countries. (there are plenty of space in Sinai, Jordan, Saudia). According to last survey 46% of Israelis agree with me (it grew from 11% last year to 35% two month ago to 46% this Passover) on the other hand we have "The Seventh Day" now. Ilana from Israel
