Me: > The people of Western Europe could have fought to protect their Jews - > and themselves too, of course. Even under occupation they could have > tried. But they didn't. Usually they helped, from what we can tell.
This is utter bullshit. Just because some people collaborated with the enemy, you immediately assume that all Europeans were helping the Nazis. Again, most of them were not. There *was* resistance, there *were* people hiding Jews from the Nazis. Me: One out of a hundred? A thousand? They were so successful, too. Note, of course, that in Denmark they _were_ succesful, which shows that it can be done, and how little the rest of Europe did. In Germany _everyone knew_ about the death camps and the execution squads. They weren't kept secret. Soldiers would write home to their parents. No one did anything. In France the collaborationist government _helped_ the Germans. In Italy Mussolini did the same. This is a record that only you could be proud of. > Why would you possibly think that Europe would still be ruled by > Germans if the vast majority of citizens had been collaborators? I'm > not saying they were - they weren't, it was just that in the particular > case of the extermination of the Jews, they didn't give a damn No, of course we did not give a damn. I guess that is why ordinary people risked their lives fighting in the resistance -- because they did not give a damn. I guess that is why ordinary people risked their lives by hiding Jews in their homes -- because they did not give a damn (ever heard of Anne Frank?). I guess that is why so many farmers suddenly had so many "relatives from the city" in their homes -- because we did not give a damn. I guess that is why so many ordinary people were tortured and murdered for fighting in the resistance or for hiding Jews -- because they did not give a damn. Me: I have heard of Anne Frank. _She died_ at the hands of the Nazis. Along with everyone in her family save her father. That protection she was afforded must have been awfully effective. I'm surprised that you have. Were there so many? No serious historian of the period argues that there was significant resistance to the Nazis. Period. Europe has mythologized its "resistance" so much to hide its collective guilt. But ask the Russians or the Serbs about the resistance in Western Europe. Austria elected a Nazi to become its President. France elected a Nazi collaborator to become its President. Not during the war - in the 1980s. > Europeans _killed_ all their Jews. Hm, then were did all those Jews come from that emigrated to the US and Israel *after* the war? Me: Well, if it makes you feel better, Jeroen, killed 6 million of its Jews and forced the rest to flee. Apparently you think that obviates what happened. I'm not surprised. > How many do you know, Jeroen? I have no idea. Unlike in the US, people tend to keep their religion to themselves and usually do not go about pointing out to everyone within earshot that they are Jewish/Catholic/Muslem/whatever. Me: I wonder why. God knows if I was Jewish around someone like you, in a place where 6 million of my people had been butchered with the consent of the population, I wouldn't want it generally known. > You have variously suggested that the Netherlands should be reluctant > to aid the US in Afghanistan for fear of terrorist retaliation, and > that it is legitimate to restrict Jewish freedom of speech to protect > people against terrorists. > Americans have a word for views like that. The sad thing is that so > many of your countrymen seem to feel the same way. We have a word for your attitude as well. Anti-Europe. Jeroen Me: I tried to count how many times I've been to Europe. I can't do it - I've been too often. I've traveled the United Kingdom, Ireland, France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, and Austria on various occasions, and I loved each one of them. I will be going to Russia in a month. I run a program at the Kennedy School of Government that is meant to try and help create a Russian (that's part of Europe, Jeroen) middle class, and you can bet I don't do it for the $15/hour they pay me. I have been to Europe more often than I have been to India, the land of my ancestors, and I've spent almost as much time there. Have you ever even left Europe, by any chance? Obviously I'm more than somewhat familiar with its history - far more familiar than you are, to be blunt. My shelves are filled with books by European authors, my favorite TV show was broadcast by the BBC. This is not the profile of someone who is anti-Europe. Here's the really striking thing. You whine constantly that anyone who criticizes Israel is called anti-semitic. That's not true. Only you have consistently been called anti-semitic on the list, although many people criticize Israel. It does get you out from having to actually defend your statements - maybe that is why you do it. But you call anyone who criticizes Europe anti-European. As a sort of last plea to see if it actually is possible for you to look at the world from someone else's perspective - I'm sure it won't succeed, but what the hell - you might want to think about the symmetry there. Gautam
