I've got a selfish request. Could both of you provide some source material for the arguements you are making? It would be interesting to see the foundation of how each arguement is made.
Dan M. Well, I already mentioned my source as The Black Book on Communism - I know it's been published in France, and I believe in the US. It lists 20 million. I just did a google search - outside of Communist Party sites (I am slightly apalled that there are people with enough intellectual capacity to use a computer who are still Communists, but anyways) the _lowest_ number I found was 10 million, and it was noted that that number did not include a number of different things. R.J. Rummel's _Death by Government_ is usually considered the best overall listing of genocides - it puts the total deaths under the USSR at 61.9 million. _In my opinion_ Rummel consistently overstates his numbers, but he really does go through a fairly rigorous process of trying to control that by explaining his methodology and supplying a range of estimates. Most of those were surely under Stalin - even _I_ think that he was the worst of the Soviet leaders, although a logical product of the system. Incidentally, I found that citation on a page for a course taught by one Brad DeLong of Berkeley - anyone remember him? Rummel estimates _62 million_ for Stalin, but I believe includes casualties inflicted by the Germans during the Second World War. Rummel's page on the topic is http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM. From Rummel's book: Now consider just the low democide estimate of 24,063,000 citizens murdered. This is an absolute, rock bottom, low. It is calculated from all the most conservative, lowest estimates, for all kinds and sources and periods of democide, for 1917 to 1987. It is highly improbable that all these hundreds of very low estimates are correct. The low of 24,063,000 killed is over 20,000,000 dead below the 42 year average (1918-1959) low estimate among experts or knowledgeable Soviets; more important, it is over 15,000,000 dead below the 42 year average of those low estimates based on census data (see Appendix 1.1). Yet, this lower limit of 24,063,000 citizens murdered is itself much greater than the 15,000,000 battle dead of the largest, most lethal war of all time. Judging by what I've read in the last few minutes, 20 million is probably a low-end estimate. Gautam
