> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Verzonden: donderdag 25 april 2002 14:31 > Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Onderwerp: RE: Scouted: Commentary: Why Europe Sides Against > the Jews / time.com
> Me: > > The people of Western Europe could have fought to protect their Jews > > - and themselves too, of course. Even under occupation they could > > have tried. But they didn't. Usually they helped, from what we can > > tell. > > This is utter bullshit. Just because some people collaborated with the > enemy, you immediately assume that all Europeans were helping the > Nazis. Again, most of them were not. There *was* resistance, there > *were* people hiding Jews from the Nazis. > > Me: > One out of a hundred? A thousand? They were so successful, too. > Note, of course, that in Denmark they _were_ succesful, which shows > that it can be done, and how little the rest of Europe did. In Germany > _everyone knew_ about the death camps and the execution squads. They > weren't kept secret. Soldiers would write home to their parents. No > one did anything. Since you seem to have the answer to everything, what *should* we have done? Fight back? With what? Weapons we did not have? Europe is not the US, you know; over here we were (and still are) not allowed to stockpile weapons in our homes because of some "right to bear arms". And then, of course, it is quite easy to sit back in a comfortable chair, far away on the other side of the world, five decades after the war, and criticise people for what they did or did not do during the Nazi occupation. Especially when you have never been in their situation yourself. > In France the collaborationist government _helped_ the Germans. In > Italy Mussolini did the same. This is a record that only you could be > proud of. Where exactly did I even imply I would be proud of that? Did I really say that (and if so: where) or is this just more of your usual bashing? > > Why would you possibly think that Europe would still be ruled by > > Germans if the vast majority of citizens had been collaborators? I'm > > not saying they were - they weren't, it was just that in the > > particular case of the extermination of the Jews, they didn't give a > > damn > > No, of course we did not give a damn. I guess that is why ordinary > people risked their lives fighting in the resistance -- because they > did not give a damn. I guess that is why ordinary people risked their > lives by hiding Jews in their homes -- because they did not give a damn > (ever heard of Anne Frank?). I guess that is why so many farmers > suddenly had so many "relatives from the city" in their homes -- > because we did not give a damn. I guess that is why so many ordinary > people were tortured and murdered for fighting in the resistance or for > hiding Jews -- because they did not give a damn. > > Me: > I have heard of Anne Frank. _She died_ at the hands of the Nazis. > Along with everyone in her family save her father. That protection she > was afforded must have been awfully effective. For crying out loud, what more COULD people have done to protect her? People risked their LIVES to protect the Frank family; they were all caught and sent to the camps because they were *betrayed*! No matter what people over here did, it will never be enough for you. You complain that Europeans did nothing to help Jews. I then point out that they *did*, and then you whine that they did not do enough. Since you seem to have the answer to everything, what more could people have done to protect the Frank family? Kill everyone who came within 50 meters of the house? Raid the train with which she was deported? If we had brought all the Jews together and protected them with a concrete wall five meters high and two meters thick, you would probably whine that we should have made that wall ten meters high and five meters thick. > Were there so many? No serious historian of the period argues that > there was significant resistance to the Nazis. Period. Europe has > mythologized its "resistance" so much to hide its collective guilt. > But ask the Russians or the Serbs about the resistance in Western > Europe. Austria elected a Nazi to become its President. France > elected a Nazi collaborator to become its President. Not during the > war - in the 1980s. What exactly do democratic elections long after the war have to do with the resistance during the war? Many voters in those elections were not even born when the war ended. I am certainly not happy about the people's choice in Austria and France. But that is democracy: if a (neo-)Nazi wants to run for president, and a majority of the voters want him to become president, then that is exactly what will happen. We do not overthrow a democratically elected president because part of the population does not like his ideas. > > Europeans _killed_ all their Jews. > > Hm, then were did all those Jews come from that emigrated to the US and > Israel *after* the war? > > Me: > Well, if it makes you feel better, Jeroen, killed 6 million of its Jews > and forced the rest to flee. Apparently you think that obviates what > happened. I'm not surprised. That is not what I think. I am trying to get you to give facts instead of anti-European rhetoric and sweeping generalisations. > > How many do you know, Jeroen? > > I have no idea. Unlike in the US, people tend to keep their religion to > themselves and usually do not go about pointing out to everyone within > earshot that they are Jewish/Catholic/Muslem/whatever. > > Me: > I wonder why. God knows if I was Jewish around someone like you, in a > place where 6 million of my people had been butchered with the consent > of the population, I wouldn't want it generally known. As usual, you are not reading what I wrote. Note that I said that this was common behaviour for people of a variety of religions, not just the Jews. But why should a Jew I know not want me to know he is Jewish? As I have stated repeatedly before, I have no reason to hate Jews. And despite it being asked twice already, nobody has given me any reason why I would hate Jews. > Me: > I tried to count how many times I've been to Europe. I can't do it - > I've been too often. I've traveled the United Kingdom, Ireland, > France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, and Austria on various occasions, > and I loved each one of them. I will be going to Russia in a month. I > run a program at the Kennedy School of Government that is meant to try > and help create a Russian (that's part of Europe, Jeroen) Yes, I *know* that is part of Europe. Contrary to what you think, I am not living in a paranoid fantasy world. > middle class, and you can bet I don't do it for the $15/hour they pay > me. I have been to Europe more often than I have been to India, the > land of my ancestors, and I've spent almost as much time there. For someone who claims to love all those European countries, you have surprisingly little positive to say about them. > Have you ever even left Europe, by any chance? As a matter of fact, yes I have. And I plan to do it again. > This is not the profile of someone who is anti-Europe. For someone who claims not to be anti-Europe, you have surprisingly little positive to say about Europe. > Here's the really striking thing. You whine constantly that > anyone who criticizes Israel is called anti-semitic. That's not true. > Only you have consistently been called anti-semitic on the list, > although many people criticize Israel. There are numerous posts in which Europe as a whole is labelled anti-Semitic because of its criticism of Israel's aggression. > It does get you out from having to actually defend your statements - > maybe that is why you do it. I do defend my statements; it is only that they get buried in all those posts in which I defend myself against the incessant slander and accusations coming from people like you. > But you call anyone who criticizes Europe anti-European. Ah, so it is okay for people to call me anti-Semitic and anti-American, but not okay for me to call people anti-European? I smell a double standard here... > As a sort of last plea Does that mean you are going to shut up now? That would be nice...< > to see if it actually is possible for you to look at the world from > someone else's perspective - I'm sure it won't succeed, but what the > hell - you might want to think about the symmetry there. Actually, I am quite capable of seeing the world from someone else's perspective. To me it seems like it is people like you who lack that skill and find it impossible to believe people might see things different from the way you do. Jeroen _________________________________________________________________________ Wonderful World of Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com Tom's Photo Gallery: http://tom.vanbaardwijk.com
