Why are changing the subject? On Aug 26, 11:59 am, "Bopha Angkor" <[email protected]> wrote: > How come this message comes back again and again? I received it everyday via > camdics since I one posted it at August 20. Does there is something wrong > with camdics or someone hacked my mail box? Thx > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bopha Angkor > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2010 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: Vietnamese Democide > > Lok Koeun Sam Ung after the definition of R.J Rummel, polpot and few > comrades were sacrificed or politicide by yuons to be replace by another yuon > political tools more easy for yuons to handle for failing to obey to yuons > orders and yuon wills as the cpp clan did. Or it's just a step of yuon > political strategies. Polpot and few of his comrades has no other choice than > to face their old masters while these last ones didn't need them anymore or > just want to eliminate them from the yuon political spinal column. Pham van > dong said, yuons know what to do with their creatures or political > tools/pets, while to use "STRICK" and while to USE with a piece meat. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koeun Sam Ung > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 8:33 AM > Subject: Vietnamese Democide > > STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE > > Chapter 6 > > Statistics Of > Vietnamese Democide > Estimates, Calculations, And Sources* > > By R.J. Rummel > > Genocide: among other things, the killing of people by a government > because of their indelible group membership (race, ethnicity, religion, > language). > > Politicide: the murder of any person or people by a government because of > their politics or for political purposes. > > Mass Murder: the indiscriminate killing of any person or people by a > government. > > Democide: The murder of any person or people by a government, including > genocide, politicide, and mass murder. > > Perhaps of all countries, democide in Vietnam and by Vietnamese is most > difficult to unravel and assess. It is mixed in with six wars spanning 43 > years (the Indochina War, Vietnam War, Cambodian War, subsequent guerrilla > war in Cambodia, guerrilla war in Laos, and Sino-Vietnamese War), one of them > involving the United States; a near twenty-one year formal division of the > country into two sovereign North and South parts; the full communization of > the North; occupation of neighboring countries by both North and South; > defeat, absorption, and communization of the South; and the massive flight by > sea of Vietnamese. As best as I can determine, through all this close to > 3,800,000 Vietnamese lost their lives from political violence, or near one > out of every ten men, women, and children.1 Of these, about 1,250,000, or > near a third of those killed, were murdered. > > Tables 6.1A and 6.1B give the sources, estimates and calculations of > Vietnamese killed. As noted, Vietnam was involved in several wars and was for > twenty-one years formally divided into two nation-states, North and South > Vietnam. Moreover, both parts of Vietnam committed democide against their own > people as well as in other countries, and democide was committed by > foreigners against them. Not only is Vietnam's history complex, therefore, > but the estimates of those killed in war and democide differ considerably by > perpetrator, victims, time, and place. For these reasons I have made a > special effort to divide the estimates into the smallest consistent groups > and where possible to use the resulting consolidated figures to cross check > totals and subtotals. > > This will be seen, for example, in calculating the total war-dead (lines > 1 to 261 in Table 6.1A). The first war was that against the French, defined > here as beginning when the Viet Minh established the Democratic Republic of > Vietnam in September 1945 and lasting until July 1954. I divide estimates of > war-dead and their calculations or consolidations into those for the Viet > Minh (lines 3 to 4), France (lines 7 to 18), civilians (lines 22 to 25), > military (lines 28 to 30), and total war-dead (lines 33 to 44). The total > war-dead is the figure of interest here, but before accepting its > consolidation (line 44) it can be checked against two other ways of getting > the total. One is by adding together the separately determined figures for > Viet Minh, French, and civilian war-dead (line 45); the other by adding > civilian and military war-dead (line 46). This gives us three total war dead > ranges for comparison (lines 44 to 46). The three mid-values tend to be > relatively close, while the lows and highs are quite divergent. Since we > generally want the higher high and lower low, I selected these for the final > total and averaged the three mid-values (line 47). Subtracting then the > non-Vietnamese war-dead (line 49) gives the cost of the Indochina War as > 188,000 to 1,153,000, or 512,000 Vietnamese lives. > > War-dead estimates for the Vietnam War abound (lines 53 to 214). I divide > these first into civilian and total war-dead for North Vietnam and > consolidate them (lines 54 to 67). Then I pull out estimates for Viet Cong > war-dead (which may or may not also include North Vietnamese regulars--lines > 69 to 83) and I give separately those estimates explicitly for both North > Vietnamese and Viet Cong war-dead (lines 88 to 102). For both sets the > estimates vary in the years and duration they cover. Accordingly, ignoring > estimates for one year or those whose periods or coverage are unclear, I > extrapolated the estimates for the years of the war. That is, > > extrapolated estimate = (years of war)(estimate/years it covers). > > Since many estimates here and later will be so extrapolated, the date > taken for the beginning of the war is statistically important. I selected > January 1960 based on those considerations given in Death By Government.2 > That is, as evidenced by their activity, such as the building of the Ho Chi > Minh trial, secret speeches by North Vietnamese leaders, orders to their > operatives, and the creation of political front organizations in the south, > by this date Hanoi clearly had prepared the way for and had begun a sustained > guerrilla and military effort to take over the country. This means that the > war lasted for 15.33 years. > > However, the war was not equally violent and deadly for each of these > years. It was far less intense in the early years than after the full > American involvement in 1965. To take into account this possible shift in > violence, therefore, I calculated three extrapolations for each estimate, > where I made "years of war" successively equal to 12, 13, and 14. Even then > this may seem to under or overly weight the estimates, especially for the > early 1960s before the United States was fully involved; or those for the > period of greatest violence during 1966 to 1969. In any case, I will > subsequently check on these results by comparing them against total war-dead > estimates. > > Returning now to Table 6.1A and the consolidation of the North Vietnamese > and Viet Cong war-dead estimates and extrapolations (line 102), this may be > checked against those consolidations of the separate war-dead estimates and > extrapolations (line 67 and 83) by summing them (line 104). As can be seen, > the two different ways of determining North Vietnamese and Viet Cong war-dead > yield roughly equal mid and high totals. For a preliminary war-dead range, I > take the lowest low and highest high and average the two mid-values (line > 105). This is preliminary since in the light of subsequent figures for > war-deaths among South Vietnamese and other forces, it may have to be > adjusted. > > I follow similar procedures to determine a preliminary South Vietnamese > war-dead range (lines 108 to 140). Note that the two ways of estimating this > range (lines 138 and 139) yield fairly close mid and high totals, but still > must be treated with caution. Unlike with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong > war-dead estimates generally, civilian and total war-dead statistics for > South Vietnam are not always clear as to whether they also cover democide. I > have tried to separate out the ambiguous estimates, but sometimes this > demands reading the mind of the source (e.g., lines 109, 132, 134). Even if > labeled "war-dead" the estimate may cover all killed during the war, which > would include democide (e.g., possibly line 133). In any case, keeping this > in mind, I calculate a preliminary South Vietnamese war-dead total as I did > for North Vietnam and the Viet Cong (line 140). > > Largely uncontroversial war-dead totals then are calculated for South > Vietnam's allies (lines 142 to 179--the three estimates for South Vietnam and > allies on lines 182 to 184 are for background only). > > Finally I can calculate an overall war-dead total. I list related > estimates and their consolidations for civilians (lines 188 to 193), military > (lines 196 to 199), and combined (lines 202 to 206), and then check the > latter by two sums. One is that of the separate civilian and military > consolidations (line 207); the other is of the preliminary North Vietnam/Viet > Cong, South Vietnam, United States, and other third party sub-totals (line > 208). The three mid-values (lines 206 to 208) are relatively close, while one > low is about a third lower than the others. Consistent with my approach, I > take this low and the highest high to establish the final range. Its > mid-value is the average of the three alternative mid-values (line 209). > Subtracting foreign dead from this (line 210) gives a likely Vietnam War, > war-dead total of 1,719,000 people (line 211). Since this is not the figure > to which the preliminary North Vietnamese/Viet Cong and South Vietnamese > war-dead figures summed, they must be adjusted such that they add up to this > total. Proportionally adjusting them gives the final ranges and mid-values > shown (lines 212 and 214). > > Both North Vietnam and South Vietnam were involved in other wars and > suffered rebellions of one-sort or another. In South Vietnam there was the > suppression of various sects and their independent armies (line 219), > rebellions of minorities (lines 222 to 223), > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
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