On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Jerry Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Sorry, that was poorly worded, and more confrontational than I intended

Not a problem. It's a sticky conversation as I'm not talking morality but
syntax. This is why no one understands editors. :)


>
> If Begin was not a terrorist, then MOST of those people the US has labeled
> terrorists need to be relabeled, as well.

Not necessarily true. A terrorist is trying to cause terror and lower
confidence in the government's ability to protect. The dividing line is the
perceived intent and the stated intent. Blowing up a military base is
militancy. A sit in at a college is activism. Damaging property is vandalism
(usually criminal). An attack on a pizza shop is terrorism.
Oklahoma was terrorism pure and simple. Yes, it was a government building
but was known to have a daycare and other civilian offices. No attempt was
made to remove or even limit the civilian casualties. The civilians were the
targets.
9/11 was terrorism without a doubt. Even the attack on the Pentagon used a
plain full of civilians and had no care about any civilians in the Pentagon.


As a side note, the use of double staged attacks is terrorism even when used
against military targets. These are attacks where the first explosion
injures/kills soldiers and the second explosion is timed to kill the medical
teams that go in to help the wounded.

Oh, and let me take a step back and say that I'm talking about the Kind
David Hotel event as stated in the original post. While I don't consider
that terrorism, I do see a lot of Irgun's actions as terrorism. Their idea
of "an eye for an eye" where they would kill an Arab for each Jew that was
killed is terrorism, not justice.


>
>
> I just want a standard set of criteria to be applied, regardless if the
> actions are by my team or the other team.
>
> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:18 PM, Jerry Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > That is the silliest, most childish argument I have ever heard.
> >
> > "We called ahead".
> >
> > (Yeah, we planted bombs in a hotel, and caused the death and serious
> injury
> > of 100 people, but we called first. All of those deaths aren't our
> fault).
> >
> > Nope, doesn't cut it.
> >
> > Responsibility is with the people that planted the bombs. Hidden in milk
> > cans. Smuggled into the kitchen of a hotel.
> >
> > Period.
> >
> > No, maybe they shouldn't have been using PART of the hotel as a police
> and
> > military office. Granted. But that does not removed the responsiibilty
> for
> > the deaths squarely on the people who planted the bombs.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Michael Dinowitz <
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> I'll say the same thing that I did before: THEY CALLED AHEAD. Show me
> >> where
> >> anyone in Iraq calls ahead. Show me where McVeigh called ahead to clear
> >> out
> >> civilians in Oklahoma. Show me where Al Queda called ahead to clear out
> >> civilians on 9/11. Again and again, the point is that they DID call
> ahead
> >> and DID try to make sure there were no civilian deaths. If that
> difference
> >> can't be seen then EVERY military action in which civilians are killed
> is
> >> a
> >> terrorist act.
> >> What counter-terrorism class are you talking about (that I assume you've
> >> attended or seen a syllabus for)?
> >>
> >> I'm blaming the British for having a military location in a civilian
> >> dwelling. I'm blaming the British for not evacuating the building when
> >> warned before hand. If they used a non-civilian location then this
> >> conversation would not be happening. If they listened and cleared out
> the
> >> civilians then this conversation would not be happening.
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> 

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