Russel, the words of the "Shema": "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."
To me, this is the cornerstone of my Jewishness - strict monotheism. I do not keep Kosher. I do not worship in synagogue on the Sabbath as often as I should. But I firmly believe in the words of the Shema prayer. As Michael pointed out earlier, there are converts to Judaism whose parents were not Jews. I do not think of my Jewishness as a set of laws or practices, but of beliefs. I identify in the core of my soul as a Jew. Apparently, we have four basic definitions of Jewishness going on in this thread: 1. a race 2. a culture 3. those who adhere to a set of laws 4. a religion Don't know if this helps or confuses things more. -Ben > -----Original Message----- > From: Russel Madere [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:38 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > Let me ask this then, what makes a Jew Jewish? Following the > Torah? The > Messianic Jews I know are Kosher and worship on the Sabbath > in a Synagog. > They believe Jesus was the Messiah, but did not free His > followers from the > Jewish laws as Christians believe. > > So they are not Jewish, even if they follow the Jewish laws? > > ===== > Russel Madere > Senior Software Engineer > Turbo Squid, Inc. > http://www.turbosquid.com > > Is your head tag nested within your body tag? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:18 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > Tim- > > interesting post, but the point I was making is that > messianic "Jews" are > > not part of the Jewish religion. > > Calling themselves "Jews" does those of us who really are a > disservice and > > confuses things for non-Jews. > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tim Painter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:08 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > As a Christian, I keep a keen interest in the Jewish > foundation of my > > > beliefs. My understanding is that Messianic Jews still > > > consider themselves > > > Jewish, in the sense that they are a Jew by race and not > by religious > > > beliefs. If I was Irish or African American, I would still > > > be Irish or > > > African American if I became a Christian, hence the idea > > > behind being a > > > Messianic Jew. Many Messianic Jews still participate in > their Jewish > > > customs because, quite frankly, it has a whole different set > > > of meaning to > > > them now. > > > > > > Being that we believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of the > > > law of God, then > > > we no longer believe that we are required to adhere to the > > > Old Covenant. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Tim P. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:38 PM > > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > > That gets into a very tricky thing. Many (many, many) > > > messianic Jewish > > > groups were started up with the primary idea to convert Jews to > > > Christianity. They may dress it up to make it more > 'palatable' but it > > > doesn't change anything. I see Jews for Jesus every summer > > > and they get > > > totally pissed off when I say to them "onward Christian > > > soldiers" or "thats > > > very Christian of you". They're entire budget comes from > > > those Christians > > > who feel that Jews need to be 'saved'. It's an insult and > one I don't > > > accept. > > > > Now there may be some people who truly believe that they > > > can believe in > > > Jesus and be Jewish at the same time. The question almost > > > always comes down > > > to the laws. Christians don't keep Kosher. They don't follow > > > the Sabbath > > > (Sunday was resurrection day, not the Sabbath), they do a > LOT of other > > > things against biblical law that Jews keep. If someone wants > > > to try and be > > > both, then fine and good, but I don't expect it to be easy or > > > to last into > > > the next generation. > > > > > > > > At 12:28 PM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > > >I understand that, I was just curious if you knew whether > > > or not they > > > > >considered themselves Jewish. > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:20 AM > > > > >To: CF-Community > > > > >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > >Not to be tacky, but IMHO "messianic Jew" is an oxymoron, > > > either as one > > > > >word > > > > >or two > > > > >(two words = oxy moron, as in air head) > > > > > > > > > >sorry, but the Jewish faith does not believe the > Messiah has come. > > > > >anyone who does believe that by definition cannot be a Jew. > > > > > > > > > >-Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:21 AM > > > > >> To: CF-Community > > > > >> Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Would they agree with that, or is that your opinion. I > > > honestly don't > > > > >> know. The only reason I know of it is my wife has a > > > friend who is a > > > > >> messianic Jew. > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:14 AM > > > > >> To: CF-Community > > > > >> Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > >> > > > > >> Kevin- > > > > >> but they are not Jews. > > > > >> -Ben > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:12 AM > > > > >> > To: CF-Community > > > > >> > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision > article link) > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Yes, technically they are Christians, however they > > > still incorporate > > > > >> > Jewish traditions. :) > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Kevin > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:09 AM > > > > >> > To: CF-Community > > > > >> > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision > article link) > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You mean Christians? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > At 11:54 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > > >> > >Don't forget messianic Jews. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >-----Original Message----- > > > > >> > >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > >> > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:45 AM > > > > >> > >To: CF-Community > > > > >> > >Subject: RE:Religious Jews (was: Circumcision > article link) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >Michael, > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >I do not want to start a fight. But I am quite upset. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >I take strong exception to your use of the phrase "a > > > > >> > rational rejected > > > > >> > >by > > > > >> > >religious Jews". > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >I *am* a religious Jew. > > > > >> > >But I am *not* an Orthodox Jew, I am a Reform Jew. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >I recognize there being (at least) three movements in > > > the Jewish > > > > >> > >religion - > > > > >> > >Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. I consider > all three of > > > > >> > them valid > > > > >> > >and > > > > >> > >their members religious. There are also secular Jews. > > > I am not a > > > > >> > secular > > > > >> > >Jew. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >In my mind, you are a religious Orthodox Jew. I am a > > > > >> religious Reform > > > > >> > >Jew. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >Apparently that mode of thinking only works in > one direction. > > > > >> > >This just backs up my previous posts about religious > > > > >> > discrimination in > > > > >> > >Israel by Orthodox against other movements. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ><and, oh by the way, the word is "rationale"> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >-Ben > > > > >> > >:-( > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > >> > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:40 AM > > > > >> > >> To: CF-Community > > > > >> > >> Subject: Re: Circumcision article link > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> Actually, a religious person (at least this > one) looks at it > > > > >> > >> and says that its a commandment and I'm doing > it because its > > > > >> > >> a commandment. If science says that the > commandment has a > > > > >> > >> physical effect, then fine and good. The > physical effect is > > > > >> > >> totally secondary to the spiritual effect. > > > > >> > >> To say that the commandment or every commandment > > > was done for > > > > >> > >> a physical reason such as health opens the door > to denial of > > > > >> > >> the root of the commandment. Hey, not eating pork > > > was because > > > > >> > >> of trichinosis. If we cook it right then we > wouldn't get the > > > > >> > >> disease and we can now eat it. Same for all the other > > > > >> > >> commandments. This is the rational of the reform > > > movement and > > > > >> > >> a rational rejected by religious Jews. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> At 03:51 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > > >> > >> >It seems that much of the old testament law, such as > > > > >> > >> circumcision, what to eat and not to eat, etc., > has a good > > > > >> > >> basis in what is healthy, especailly given the lack of > > > > >> > >> sanitary conditions of the times. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> >A religious person might argue that this is > God making up > > > > >> > >> the lack of science of the time to protect people. A > > > > >> > >> non-believer might argue that this is wise > people coming up > > > > >> > >> religious law to mirror their own observations > about what > > > > >> > >> makes a person sick. Either way, it demonstrates a > > > good deal > > > > >> > >> of wisdom in the old books. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> >H. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> >---------- Original Message > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > >> > >> >from: "Braver, Ben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >> > >> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >> > >> >date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:56:23 -0700 > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> >>Found a link to the original article on > > > circumcision & risk > > > > >> > >> of cervical > > > > >> > >> >>cancer - it's in the New England Journal of Medicine: > > > > >> > >> >>http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/346/15/1105 > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > >> > >> >>Apparently, the foreskin is particularly > susceptible to > > > > >> > >> infection from HPV - > > > > >> > >> >>human papilloma virus - which is linked to > > > cervical cancer. > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > >> > >> >>-Ben > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Your ad could be here. 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