On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Cameron Childress wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Dana wrote: >> Ayn Rand has a lot to answer for.
I really enjoy her books (all I've really read is the fiction). They're great, and have a lot of reality to them. They're at an extreme, philosophically, but if you realize she came from the "crappy" kind of socialism, you'd cut her some slack. And extremes are sometimes something that an author uses as part of the story/message/whatever, to evict certain responses or thoughts. Just say'n. :) > I just skimmed the description of Atlas Shrugged on Wikipedia - > surveyed to be "second to the Bible as the book that made the most > difference in American readers' lives". So - armed with this > knowledge - if I exercise my own free will to read it, whatever > influence it will have on my thinking was and is my choice. Or, I > could choose to not read it. > > See how easy that was? How easy would it be if Dana hadn't brought them up? Your take on it seems to me like someone trying to argue that "every man is an island". Which is true to a certain extent, but so is "no man is an island". We live in a self-organizing system, full of recursion and other niftyness. Boyd really nails a lot of this (here's one of his talks): 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_fjaqAiOmc 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuY5NcRvBbU 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSNwjbNv6NY 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg-HXnvTEqA 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgFJVZkHYw 6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCAQqT2JvZ4 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh0k9kc3EY0 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi4KFKyNnsI (he really gets rolling from the 2nd/3rd video on, but I'd listen to all of it, if you can -- 'over an hour total (if you don't have the time, maybe #6?)) The decisions we make, what we think, etc.-- it's ALIVE, ALIVE! Many people don't even know they have options-- this is a big problem for "poor" parents apparently, re: school for their kids, for instance. They're not aware of the options available to them. At least that's what a couple studies have said. Just thinking about available information, and it's effect, is enough to show that "free" will is useless if it doesn't know it's "free". If you only think you have one option, what kind of choice is that? (there's *always* the life/death choice, I reckon) And all of this avoids the rather muddy waters of Nature vs. Nurture (if there is really even a duality there, which I doubt). How we acquire information, training for acquiring information, etc.. I find it odd how many people brandy about such terms as "free will" without apparently putting much thought into it. Not you Cam specifically, but in general. It's part of why I bring up Nietzsche's thoughts about willpower so often. (Speaking of Nietzsche, I thought this was interesting : Nietzsche as Critic and Captive of Enlightenment http://www.scrye.com/~station/dissertation.html) This is powerful stuff tho.... we're not just affected by others, *we affect others as well*. Is the master the slave, or is the slave the master? There's more to chains than most people realize. Eh. I guess before I drift off into objectivity and the nature of reality any further, I should just not. At least I *think* /I'm/ making the decision. How and why I'm making it tho... eh. Has Fox news contributed to the "decision"? Sure. Everything that "happens" effects stuff. It's just a piece tho. Mostly, um, it's probably some combination of my physical make up (which I've altered by drugs and whatnot, theoreticall, and remember; just *thinking* alters you physically! 0.0), the experiences I've had, and the "group(s!)" I'm a part of-- all of which is basically saying the same thing: No one really knows. But that doesn't stop us from using what we do know. As Larry said, phear advertising companies. Learn about this stuff so it's harder for it to get used on you, and so you can use it to achieve whatever you'd like. If you'd like to get it that way. Heck, you can always bust a Judo-knowledge technique, like the deal with slaves/masters Re: chains. For FSM's sakes, we can't even figure out if there even /is/ such a think:s/think/thing/ as objectivity! Our minds might want stuff in these nice, organized little boxes, but that's not really, um, real, as far as I can tell. Things seem more liquid... chaos, order... flip sides of the same coin, yet more than the sum of parts. Heh. Anyways, it's apparent to me, at least, that "free will" and "personal responsibility" are free-form concepts. Easy to say, but a lot harder to nail down what they really mean. By paying taxes, am I personally responsible for what *my* (our?) government does? Forget that I paid them with "good intent", or whatever, I'm sure no one /wants/ their money going to "evil" stuff (whatever they consider evil)-- are you personally responsible for the results of your actions, bar none? How far down the rabbit hole can you go without losing it? Where do we draw the line? Personally, I'm drawing an arbitrary line here [-----------] and saying that after a couple more lines (depending on your definition of a line), that's it. I'm done. No more "randomness" (for now). God I feel sorry for anyone who actually reads this stuff-- If I drive anyone mad, I'll feel responsible. Or maybe not. Hrm. :) Happy Tuesday! :DeN -- A revolution only lasts fifteen years, a period which coincides with the effectiveness of a generation. Jose Ortega y Gass ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:312489 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
