I am just attempting an exchange of views on the subject. If the attempt is bothering you somehow we can drop it.
It's not so much a matter of "all other religions conform(ing) to what (I)believe so (I) don't feel bad... about not going to heaven...." as that I can't quite seem to nail down this catholic=christian (?) issue. I usually mean "believing in the divine nature of Christ" when I say Christian but there seems to be a special meaning in certain protestant denominations in wwhich you not only believe that Christ is divine but also that he is your best buddy and personal coach, which seems to an old-school Catholic like me to be a contradiction in terms. I hear testimony at the church my daughter goes to which seems to indicate that people think that God is helping them get that SUV and that if they are laid off this is because they have strayed from a godly path. I wonder. When God has plans for someone, they often do not suit the personal convenience of that individual. Look at Jesus. His human side would no doubt have preferred to settle down with a nice girl and raise grandchildren. If I am going to go to hell it will be for better reason than non-attendance at a particular church believe me :) This erm, unbelonging might be sufficient according to your beliefs -- I am still unclear as to what they are, so please forgive me if I am being dense -- but I have done committed plenty of sins in my time. Ultimately, as you point out, each of us has to reconcile our own conscience with our own beliefs. Being who I am I question both, but this is my own issue, which we do not need to delve into here :) By the way, your understanding of Catholic dogma is not quite correct, I think. Yes, body of works matters. However (this is from grade-school catechism now) we all commit sins. We lie to each other, to God and to ourselves. Perhaps we steal, or commit adultery. Those sins can be forgiven in the sacrament of confession, allowing one to enter a state of grace where communion with God becomes possible without blasphemy. BIG disclaimer --- I learned all this in a very traditional convent school lo these many years ago, and I believe that a number of rituals, confession in particular, have become more informal since. But generally, sincere repentance will wash away all but the very worst, or mortal, sins. I don't think you can just confess a murder and be forgiven, for example. I guess I am not sure what you mean by personal salvation. If it equates to the formula I have heard from southern baptists ie "have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior?" then one thing I have always wondered is whether people who believe this believe that once they are saved they are always saved regardless of what they do afterwards? This is an idea that is as foreign to me as speaking in tongues :) I started to say but of course we have control over what we believe, because we have a mind and we are encouraged to use it :) However I think you are saying that there is no bargaining, that you cannot say well, maybe just this once won't count or maybe that I will be a Christian except here where it might get me laughed at. If that is what you are saying then I agree with you on that point at least. Dana Matthew Small writes: > Actually, I've never made any distinction that there was a difference > between Catholicism and other forms of Christianity. I don't know what > Catholics need to do to get to Heaven. That said, if it doesn't involve > personal salvation with Jesus Christ, it doesn't work according to what > Protestants in a general way believe. But you're hitting one of my major > points here. If in fact you are not a Christian, and that you do not > subscribe to the tenets that Christians believe, and therefore by the > formula given above you are destined go to Hell, what does that matter to > you? I mean, neither I nor any other Christian can change what the > requirements to get to Heaven are according to what we believe. You have > your beliefs, shouldn't that be good enough for you? Must all other > religions conform to what you believe so you don't feel bad about yourself > not going to Heaven according to the tenets that they've established? I > mean, you can't have it all - you pick and choose what you believe and then > stick to that, hope for the best when you die. I'm sure that there are > plenty of Chrstians who believe that my soul is in mortal jeopardy because > I'm not been baptized by complete immersion in water but rather by a > sprinking on the head of holy water. That does not bother me, I believe that > the main thing is personal salvation. I've heard that they way to Heaven > for Catholics is their body of personal works on Earth. That will get you > nowhere in the Presbyterian Church that I go to. There are denominations > that believe you must speak in tongues, dance with snakes, can heal people > on demand, do whatever. I don't believe in that stuff, so it doesn't matter > to me that I might go to their version of Hell, I've got my own tenets to > follow. > > Matt Small > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dana Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 5:56 PM > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > I guess southern baptists are those whom I have had the most exposure to. > > Maybe we are just dealing with my resulting associations with "saved" and > > salvation. > > > > So what is salvation to you? I went to a Presbyterian sunday school a few > > times when I was a kid and visiting my cousins, but I dont remember a lot > > about it except that references to priests did not go over well. > > > > You are still talking about "some other faith" when you reply to me.... > > which seems to indicate that you do not in fact think Catholics are > > Christian. > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > Matthew Small writes: > > > > > That's incorrect, it's not my point that you must be a fundamental > southern > > > Baptist to go to Heaven. Many of them believe that, I don't. I believe > in > > > personal salvation. I am a practicing Presbyterian. > > > > > > I think that my points were: > > > 1) I believe that, according to scripture, ordaining a homosexual bishop > is > > > wrong becuase of the higher standards of personal conduct that leaders > of > > > the church should be held to. 1 Cor. 6:9-10, 1 Peter 5:1-3 > > > 2) I don't like the politically correct view that every lifestyle > > > must/should be accepted by the church, although I believe every person > > > should be accepted and welcomed by the church. Romans 14:1 > > > 3) Christians are as much sinful as anybody else, it's just that they > know > > > they are forgiven according to their beliefs and you can be too, you > just > > > need to subscribe to their beliefs in order to be forgiven. Luke 24:27, > > > Acts 10:43, Ephesians 1:13 > > > 4) Accroding to Christian doctrine as is found in the Bible, you must > > > believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah and is your salvation or you > go to > > > Hell. There are no exceptions. John 4:25, Acts 4:12, Acts 16:17, > > > 5) Don't get offended if you are not a Christian and have some other > faith. > > > Christians will tell you you are wrong, feel free to tell us that we are > > > wrong. We can take it. > > > > > > - Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dana Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 10:39 PM > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > Clearly. There seem to be several Jewish people for a start, and John, > > > > Larry and Doug seem a bit cynical on the subject of religion. > > > > > > > > I was just taking issue with the concept that if you aren't a > > > > fundamentalist southern baptist you are not a christian. I don't think > > > this > > > > was Mattew's primary point but he does seem to believe it. > > > > > > > > Call it my rant for the day. > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > Kevin Graeme writes: > > > > > > > > > IMO, there's a difference between non-Christian and anti-Christian. > I > > > > > think there are many non-Christians on this list. > > > > > > > > > > -Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:58 PM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, don't be sorry that it does, it's a fact that it is > > > > > > anti-Christian but I don't care. I have enough of my own > > > > > > faith to stand up on my legs and write whatever I need to to > > > > > > defend my faith. I don't seem to have any backers here though. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt Small > > > > > > > > > > > > PS. I don't hold any of this against any of you. It's a > > > > > > simple debate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Dana Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:11 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sorry if this list strikes you as anti-Christian. Some of > the > > > > > > comments > > > > > > > in the last couple of days certainly have that flavor, I will > grant > > > > > > > you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I was broght up in an agnostic home and attended a > very > > > > > > > strict convent school in my early years. I consider myself a > > > > > > > non-practising catholic. Specifically I do not believe in papal > > > > > > > infallibility and I disagree with the Church's position on birth > > > > > > > control. It has historically been used (and abused) for > political > > > > > > > reasons, and I think you have to bear in mind that this > > > > > > organization > > > > > > > was unquestionably corrupt in the middle ages and may still be > > > > > > > somewhat affected by worldly considerations. My daughter > currently > > > > > > > attends a "christian" church, and I have had a number > > > > > > of > > > > > > > dealings with fundamentalist christians, including working > > > > > > at a couple > > > > > > > of different christian businesses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I put christian in quotes because it annoys me slightly > > > > > > that the name > > > > > > > has come to mean not those who believe in the teachings of > > > > > > christ but > > > > > > > a > > > > > > certain > > > > > > > type of believer. I *have* run into those who believe that > > > > > > catholics > > > > > > > are not christians; something about graven images. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, with that long preamble I have this to say. Some of > > > > > > the very > > > > > > > best people I have ever met have been believers, just > fundamentally > > > > > > > good > > > > > > people. > > > > > > > I include in this a church secretary I know in Jacksonville, a > > > > > > > receptionist at Integrity Online, and a couple of nuns as > > > > > > well as some > > > > > > > of the people at my daughter's current church. But one of > > > > > > the things > > > > > > > they had in common was a way of looking to the person and > > > > > > encouraging > > > > > > > the person without being preachy or making value > > > > > > judgements. I cannot > > > > > > > picture any of those people saying, oh, we cannot have this > > > > > > man as a > > > > > > > bishop because of > > > > > > who > > > > > > > he is... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do think that fundamentalist beliefs bother me in that > > > > > > you are saved > > > > > > > or you are not. There is no middle ground. And if you are > already > > > > > > > saved, then I think some people rest on their laurels a > > > > > > bit. They are > > > > > > > saved and they look down their noses at people who are not, even > if > > > > > > > they are not because that is not the way they want to see > > > > > > things. At > > > > > > > best they are perhaps a little saddened. I dont want anyone > praying > > > > > > > that I will find Jesus. I really don't care to discuss what my > > > > > > > relationship with Jesus may or may > > > > > > not > > > > > > > be. I am a bit of a mystic and it is something you cannot really > > > > > > > discuss without debasing it. God is God and cannot be explained > in > > > > > > > human terms, espcially not by whether rote formulas apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reaction of some fundamentalists to homosexuality also seems > > > > > > > disproportionately extreme. At times it seems as though > > > > > > some ministers > > > > > > > see it as a worse sin than murder. Is he a godly man? That > > > > > > is what is > > > > > > > important. I see no reason why this bishop cannot be an example > to > > > > > > > others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do respect your beliefs, though I am (perhaps by > > > > > > personality) less > > > > > > > inclined to accept others' interpretation of the Bible as a > > > > > > guide for > > > > > > > my life. I have thought that that if I convert, I might consider > > > > > > > Quakerism. The idea of listening to that "small still > > > > > > voice" seems to > > > > > > > make sense to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway. I wish you well. Please don't pray for me :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthew Small writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's obvious you don't get it at all - wait a minute, > > > > > > maybe you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if > you're > > > > > > outside > > > > > > > > of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't understand what > the > > > > > > problem > > > > > > > > is with this. Either you subscribe to the religion, or you > don't. > > > > > > Those > > > > > > > > that do subscribe are forgiven and go to Heaven. Those that > don't > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > > to the religion are not forgiven and go to Hell. There is no > two > > > > > > > > ways > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > it, there's no "forgiveness because he's a good person at > > > > > > heart", no > > > > > > > > in-betweens, no exceptions. Obviously, there are people > > > > > > within the > > > > > > religion > > > > > > > > who commit bad sins, heinous crimes, hold grudges, hate > others. > > > > > > Everybody > > > > > > > > points the finger at others for their crimes and sins and ask > for > > > > > > > > retribution. Fortunately, Christians know to also look at > > > > > > > > themselves > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > ask for the forgiveness for their sins (including judgement of > > > > > > > > others) > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > Jesus Christ gave to us when He died on the cross, and we > > > > > > do try to > > > > > > > > live > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > right life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears to me that you're saying that the greatest > > > > > > fault with the > > > > > > church > > > > > > > > is the judgement of fellow man. It is a failing, but don't > forget > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > that the ultimate judgement comes from God, and either > > > > > > you're with > > > > > > > > Him > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > against Him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:56 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been to many, many churches. They are all about > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > Most > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > nice. But the gossip, backstabbing and petty hate has been an > > > > > > > > integral > > > > > > part > > > > > > > > of all the ones I've spent any time in to date. And it is > > > > > > always the > > > > > > church > > > > > > > > elders and "VIP"s that are the worst offenders. Note, > > > > > > however, it is > > > > > > seldom > > > > > > > > the priests (at least not in my hearing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that the people should be perfect. But if > > > > > > they point > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > finger at me (or others) and say - You are not following the > LAW, > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > should be willing to look at themselves at the same time, and > see > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > actions fall within their own rules. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of these churches I have been to have a very active > "other" > > > > > > barrier. > > > > > > > > They are very tolerant of those inside the barrier, but > > > > > > do not allow > > > > > > > > the same kind of human foibles to those outside the barrier. > The > > > > > > > > same action from one within their group is treated as a > > > > > > forgivable > > > > > > > > sin, but if done > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > someone outside, "they're going to hell". Fortunately the > barrier > > > > > > > > and reasons for it move from group to group, so most > > > > > > people can find > > > > > > > > a group just like them (as you say "personality is more > > > > > > like"). But > > > > > > > > the very existence of that kind of thinking is at odds with > the > > > > > > > > basic teachings > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > all these churches, IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say this issue about the Bishop is not about hate. > > > > > > It is about > > > > > > hate. > > > > > > > > Not everyone. Those who just disagree, even enthusiastically, > are > > > > > > > > great. Differences of opinion are great. That's why there is > more > > > > > > > > than one > > > > > > church. > > > > > > > > People who think this guy is the worst thing to come > > > > > > along since the > > > > > > > > Inquisition have every right to their opinion. Heck, even > those > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > are calling in the death threats have the right to their > opinion. > > > > > > > > Just > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > to act on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The coverage I have seen (TV, Radio, Internet) have shown > that > > > > > > > > > many of > > > > > > > > those in the "against" camp are of the witch-burning > > > > > > variety. Many > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > hold high positions in the Anglican Church. That is what > > > > > > I find sad > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > little bit funny. They don't see that their very actions are > > > > > > diametrically > > > > > > > > opposite of what they say they are fighting for. And they > > > > > > guy they > > > > > > > > are fighting against seems to be better at what they say they > are > > > > > > > > fighting > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > than they are. Funny. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do think most Christians (since they fall in the "most > people" > > > > > > category) > > > > > > > > are selfish, self absorbed, and quite capable of not only > hating, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > actual > > > > > > > > being proud of hating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also never said their (our) religion was invalid. I think > its > > > > > > > > > great. > > > > > > And > > > > > > > > I hope that someday they will _follow_ it a little more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jerry Johnson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/06/03 12:32PM >>> > > > > > > > > > I would say that your church is in the minority, and that > you > > > > > > > > > don't go > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > church enough, and that you need to find a church where > > > > > > you feel > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > personality is more like those of the congregation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love my church, I have a good time going, and I don't > > > > > > find most > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > be hypocrital, just human. It sounds as though you > > > > > > expect all of > > > > > > > > > your church goers to be practically perfect - that just > > > > > > isn't so. > > > > > > > > > If you subscribe to tolerance, don't be bothered by what > others > > > > > > > > > do, just live > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > right life yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take a minute and listen to what the bible-thumbers > > > > > > have to say in > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > entirety, and you'll realize that it's not about hate > > > > > > at all, it's > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > different opinions than yours regarding some issues. > > > > > > Not to say > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > is not hate, but it's mostly not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like your opinion of your church leads to you > > > > > > think that > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > > Christians are people filled with hate and therefore their > > > > > > > > > religion is invalid. How's that for intolerance? > > > > > > You're blaming > > > > > > > > > an entire > > > > > > religion > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > the problems that you have your your church. I'm sure that > you > > > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > the people that I go to church with. They are the > > > > > > nicest group of > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > > that I've ever had the chance to be affliated with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:01 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, I am a Christian. Methodist to be precise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I don't often go to Church. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find that the Church, and most of those who practice the > > > > > > > > > > Christian > > > > > > > > > religions, somewhat hypocritical. (And I do know this is an > > > > > > > > > insult.) > > > > > > > > > > They preach love and tolerance, but seldom practice it. > And > > > > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > > try too hard. Nor feel bad about it when they don't. > > > > > > They tend to > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > > good haters. And if you don't toe the line exactly as > > > > > > they define > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > (and > > > > > > > > > there are hundreds of lines, all drawn in different places) > you > > > > > > > > > are a > > > > > > bad, > > > > > > > > > bad person, and deserve all you get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for this guy, I truly don't care one way or another. If > his > > > > > > > > > congregation is for him, that's what matters to me. > > > > > > > > > Intellectually. It doesn't really matter to me at all in the > > > > > > > > > overall sense. But I do get > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
