Clearly. There seem to be several Jewish people for a start, and John, Larry and Doug seem a bit cynical on the subject of religion.
I was just taking issue with the concept that if you aren't a fundamentalist southern baptist you are not a christian. I don't think this was Mattew's primary point but he does seem to believe it. Call it my rant for the day. Dana Kevin Graeme writes: > IMO, there's a difference between non-Christian and anti-Christian. I > think there are many non-Christians on this list. > > -Kevin > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:58 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > Well, don't be sorry that it does, it's a fact that it is > > anti-Christian but I don't care. I have enough of my own > > faith to stand up on my legs and write whatever I need to to > > defend my faith. I don't seem to have any backers here though. > > > > Matt Small > > > > PS. I don't hold any of this against any of you. It's a > > simple debate. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dana Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:11 PM > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > I am sorry if this list strikes you as anti-Christian. Some of the > > comments > > > in the last couple of days certainly have that flavor, I will grant > > > you. > > > > > > Personally, I was broght up in an agnostic home and attended a very > > > strict convent school in my early years. I consider myself a > > > non-practising catholic. Specifically I do not believe in papal > > > infallibility and I disagree with the Church's position on birth > > > control. It has historically been used (and abused) for political > > > reasons, and I think you have to bear in mind that this > > organization > > > was unquestionably corrupt in the middle ages and may still be > > > somewhat affected by worldly considerations. My daughter currently > > > attends a "christian" church, and I have had a number > > of > > > dealings with fundamentalist christians, including working > > at a couple > > > of different christian businesses. > > > > > > I put christian in quotes because it annoys me slightly > > that the name > > > has come to mean not those who believe in the teachings of > > christ but > > > a > > certain > > > type of believer. I *have* run into those who believe that > > catholics > > > are not christians; something about graven images. > > > > > > Anyway, with that long preamble I have this to say. Some of > > the very > > > best people I have ever met have been believers, just fundamentally > > > good > > people. > > > I include in this a church secretary I know in Jacksonville, a > > > receptionist at Integrity Online, and a couple of nuns as > > well as some > > > of the people at my daughter's current church. But one of > > the things > > > they had in common was a way of looking to the person and > > encouraging > > > the person without being preachy or making value > > judgements. I cannot > > > picture any of those people saying, oh, we cannot have this > > man as a > > > bishop because of > > who > > > he is... > > > > > > I do think that fundamentalist beliefs bother me in that > > you are saved > > > or you are not. There is no middle ground. And if you are already > > > saved, then I think some people rest on their laurels a > > bit. They are > > > saved and they look down their noses at people who are not, even if > > > they are not because that is not the way they want to see > > things. At > > > best they are perhaps a little saddened. I dont want anyone praying > > > that I will find Jesus. I really don't care to discuss what my > > > relationship with Jesus may or may > > not > > > be. I am a bit of a mystic and it is something you cannot really > > > discuss without debasing it. God is God and cannot be explained in > > > human terms, espcially not by whether rote formulas apply. > > > > > > The reaction of some fundamentalists to homosexuality also seems > > > disproportionately extreme. At times it seems as though > > some ministers > > > see it as a worse sin than murder. Is he a godly man? That > > is what is > > > important. I see no reason why this bishop cannot be an example to > > > others. > > > > > > I do respect your beliefs, though I am (perhaps by > > personality) less > > > inclined to accept others' interpretation of the Bible as a > > guide for > > > my life. I have thought that that if I convert, I might consider > > > Quakerism. The idea of listening to that "small still > > voice" seems to > > > make sense to me. > > > > > > Anyway. I wish you well. Please don't pray for me :) > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthew Small writes: > > > > > > > It's obvious you don't get it at all - wait a minute, > > maybe you do. > > > > > > > > Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if you're > > outside > > > > of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't understand what the > > problem > > > > is with this. Either you subscribe to the religion, or you don't. > > Those > > > > that do subscribe are forgiven and go to Heaven. Those that don't > > subscribe > > > > to the religion are not forgiven and go to Hell. There is no two > > > > ways > > about > > > > it, there's no "forgiveness because he's a good person at > > heart", no > > > > in-betweens, no exceptions. Obviously, there are people > > within the > > religion > > > > who commit bad sins, heinous crimes, hold grudges, hate others. > > Everybody > > > > points the finger at others for their crimes and sins and ask for > > > > retribution. Fortunately, Christians know to also look at > > > > themselves > > and > > > > ask for the forgiveness for their sins (including judgement of > > > > others) > > that > > > > Jesus Christ gave to us when He died on the cross, and we > > do try to > > > > live > > the > > > > right life. > > > > > > > > It appears to me that you're saying that the greatest > > fault with the > > church > > > > is the judgement of fellow man. It is a failing, but don't forget > > > > the > > fact > > > > that the ultimate judgement comes from God, and either > > you're with > > > > Him > > or > > > > against Him. > > > > > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:56 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been to many, many churches. They are all about > > the same. > > > > > Most > > very > > > > nice. But the gossip, backstabbing and petty hate has been an > > > > integral > > part > > > > of all the ones I've spent any time in to date. And it is > > always the > > church > > > > elders and "VIP"s that are the worst offenders. Note, > > however, it is > > seldom > > > > the priests (at least not in my hearing). > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that the people should be perfect. But if > > they point > > their > > > > finger at me (or others) and say - You are not following the LAW, > > > > then > > they > > > > should be willing to look at themselves at the same time, and see > > > > how > > their > > > > actions fall within their own rules. > > > > > > > > > > Most of these churches I have been to have a very active "other" > > barrier. > > > > They are very tolerant of those inside the barrier, but > > do not allow > > > > the same kind of human foibles to those outside the barrier. The > > > > same action from one within their group is treated as a > > forgivable > > > > sin, but if done > > by > > > > someone outside, "they're going to hell". Fortunately the barrier > > > > and reasons for it move from group to group, so most > > people can find > > > > a group just like them (as you say "personality is more > > like"). But > > > > the very existence of that kind of thinking is at odds with the > > > > basic teachings > > of > > > > all these churches, IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > You say this issue about the Bishop is not about hate. > > It is about > > hate. > > > > Not everyone. Those who just disagree, even enthusiastically, are > > > > great. Differences of opinion are great. That's why there is more > > > > than one > > church. > > > > People who think this guy is the worst thing to come > > along since the > > > > Inquisition have every right to their opinion. Heck, even those > > > > people > > who > > > > are calling in the death threats have the right to their opinion. > > > > Just > > not > > > > to act on it. > > > > > > > > > > The coverage I have seen (TV, Radio, Internet) have shown that > > > > > many of > > > > those in the "against" camp are of the witch-burning > > variety. Many > > > > of > > them > > > > hold high positions in the Anglican Church. That is what > > I find sad > > > > and > > a > > > > little bit funny. They don't see that their very actions are > > diametrically > > > > opposite of what they say they are fighting for. And they > > guy they > > > > are fighting against seems to be better at what they say they are > > > > fighting > > for > > > > than they are. Funny. > > > > > > > > > > I do think most Christians (since they fall in the "most people" > > category) > > > > are selfish, self absorbed, and quite capable of not only hating, > > > > but > > actual > > > > being proud of hating. > > > > > > > > > > I also never said their (our) religion was invalid. I think its > > > > > great. > > And > > > > I hope that someday they will _follow_ it a little more. > > > > > > > > > > Jerry Johnson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/06/03 12:32PM >>> > > > > > I would say that your church is in the minority, and that you > > > > > don't go > > to > > > > > church enough, and that you need to find a church where > > you feel > > > > > that > > your > > > > > personality is more like those of the congregation. > > > > > > > > > > I love my church, I have a good time going, and I don't > > find most > > people > > > > to > > > > > be hypocrital, just human. It sounds as though you > > expect all of > > > > > your church goers to be practically perfect - that just > > isn't so. > > > > > If you subscribe to tolerance, don't be bothered by what others > > > > > do, just live > > the > > > > > right life yourself. > > > > > > > > > > Take a minute and listen to what the bible-thumbers > > have to say in > > it's > > > > > entirety, and you'll realize that it's not about hate > > at all, it's > > about > > > > > different opinions than yours regarding some issues. > > Not to say > > > > > that > > > > there > > > > > is not hate, but it's mostly not. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like your opinion of your church leads to you > > think that > > most > > > > > Christians are people filled with hate and therefore their > > > > > religion is invalid. How's that for intolerance? > > You're blaming > > > > > an entire > > religion > > > > for > > > > > the problems that you have your your church. I'm sure that you > > > > > don't > > know > > > > > the people that I go to church with. They are the > > nicest group of > > people > > > > > that I've ever had the chance to be affliated with. > > > > > > > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:01 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, I am a Christian. Methodist to be precise. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I don't often go to Church. > > > > > > > > > > > > I find that the Church, and most of those who practice the > > > > > > Christian > > > > > religions, somewhat hypocritical. (And I do know this is an > > > > > insult.) > > > > > > They preach love and tolerance, but seldom practice it. And > > > > > > don't > > really > > > > > try too hard. Nor feel bad about it when they don't. > > They tend to > > > > > be > > > > really > > > > > good haters. And if you don't toe the line exactly as > > they define > > > > > it > > (and > > > > > there are hundreds of lines, all drawn in different places) you > > > > > are a > > bad, > > > > > bad person, and deserve all you get. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for this guy, I truly don't care one way or another. If his > > > > > congregation is for him, that's what matters to me. > > > > > Intellectually. It doesn't really matter to me at all in the > > > > > overall sense. But I do get > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
