IMO, there's a difference between non-Christian and anti-Christian. I think there are many non-Christians on this list.
-Kevin > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:58 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > Well, don't be sorry that it does, it's a fact that it is > anti-Christian but I don't care. I have enough of my own > faith to stand up on my legs and write whatever I need to to > defend my faith. I don't seem to have any backers here though. > > Matt Small > > PS. I don't hold any of this against any of you. It's a > simple debate. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dana Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:11 PM > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > I am sorry if this list strikes you as anti-Christian. Some of the > comments > > in the last couple of days certainly have that flavor, I will grant > > you. > > > > Personally, I was broght up in an agnostic home and attended a very > > strict convent school in my early years. I consider myself a > > non-practising catholic. Specifically I do not believe in papal > > infallibility and I disagree with the Church's position on birth > > control. It has historically been used (and abused) for political > > reasons, and I think you have to bear in mind that this > organization > > was unquestionably corrupt in the middle ages and may still be > > somewhat affected by worldly considerations. My daughter currently > > attends a "christian" church, and I have had a number > of > > dealings with fundamentalist christians, including working > at a couple > > of different christian businesses. > > > > I put christian in quotes because it annoys me slightly > that the name > > has come to mean not those who believe in the teachings of > christ but > > a > certain > > type of believer. I *have* run into those who believe that > catholics > > are not christians; something about graven images. > > > > Anyway, with that long preamble I have this to say. Some of > the very > > best people I have ever met have been believers, just fundamentally > > good > people. > > I include in this a church secretary I know in Jacksonville, a > > receptionist at Integrity Online, and a couple of nuns as > well as some > > of the people at my daughter's current church. But one of > the things > > they had in common was a way of looking to the person and > encouraging > > the person without being preachy or making value > judgements. I cannot > > picture any of those people saying, oh, we cannot have this > man as a > > bishop because of > who > > he is... > > > > I do think that fundamentalist beliefs bother me in that > you are saved > > or you are not. There is no middle ground. And if you are already > > saved, then I think some people rest on their laurels a > bit. They are > > saved and they look down their noses at people who are not, even if > > they are not because that is not the way they want to see > things. At > > best they are perhaps a little saddened. I dont want anyone praying > > that I will find Jesus. I really don't care to discuss what my > > relationship with Jesus may or may > not > > be. I am a bit of a mystic and it is something you cannot really > > discuss without debasing it. God is God and cannot be explained in > > human terms, espcially not by whether rote formulas apply. > > > > The reaction of some fundamentalists to homosexuality also seems > > disproportionately extreme. At times it seems as though > some ministers > > see it as a worse sin than murder. Is he a godly man? That > is what is > > important. I see no reason why this bishop cannot be an example to > > others. > > > > I do respect your beliefs, though I am (perhaps by > personality) less > > inclined to accept others' interpretation of the Bible as a > guide for > > my life. I have thought that that if I convert, I might consider > > Quakerism. The idea of listening to that "small still > voice" seems to > > make sense to me. > > > > Anyway. I wish you well. Please don't pray for me :) > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > Matthew Small writes: > > > > > It's obvious you don't get it at all - wait a minute, > maybe you do. > > > > > > Absolutely, it's the whole idea about Christanity - that if you're > outside > > > of the religion, you're going to Hell. I don't understand what the > problem > > > is with this. Either you subscribe to the religion, or you don't. > Those > > > that do subscribe are forgiven and go to Heaven. Those that don't > subscribe > > > to the religion are not forgiven and go to Hell. There is no two > > > ways > about > > > it, there's no "forgiveness because he's a good person at > heart", no > > > in-betweens, no exceptions. Obviously, there are people > within the > religion > > > who commit bad sins, heinous crimes, hold grudges, hate others. > Everybody > > > points the finger at others for their crimes and sins and ask for > > > retribution. Fortunately, Christians know to also look at > > > themselves > and > > > ask for the forgiveness for their sins (including judgement of > > > others) > that > > > Jesus Christ gave to us when He died on the cross, and we > do try to > > > live > the > > > right life. > > > > > > It appears to me that you're saying that the greatest > fault with the > church > > > is the judgement of fellow man. It is a failing, but don't forget > > > the > fact > > > that the ultimate judgement comes from God, and either > you're with > > > Him > or > > > against Him. > > > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:56 PM > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > I have been to many, many churches. They are all about > the same. > > > > Most > very > > > nice. But the gossip, backstabbing and petty hate has been an > > > integral > part > > > of all the ones I've spent any time in to date. And it is > always the > church > > > elders and "VIP"s that are the worst offenders. Note, > however, it is > seldom > > > the priests (at least not in my hearing). > > > > > > > > I don't think that the people should be perfect. But if > they point > their > > > finger at me (or others) and say - You are not following the LAW, > > > then > they > > > should be willing to look at themselves at the same time, and see > > > how > their > > > actions fall within their own rules. > > > > > > > > Most of these churches I have been to have a very active "other" > barrier. > > > They are very tolerant of those inside the barrier, but > do not allow > > > the same kind of human foibles to those outside the barrier. The > > > same action from one within their group is treated as a > forgivable > > > sin, but if done > by > > > someone outside, "they're going to hell". Fortunately the barrier > > > and reasons for it move from group to group, so most > people can find > > > a group just like them (as you say "personality is more > like"). But > > > the very existence of that kind of thinking is at odds with the > > > basic teachings > of > > > all these churches, IMHO. > > > > > > > > You say this issue about the Bishop is not about hate. > It is about > hate. > > > Not everyone. Those who just disagree, even enthusiastically, are > > > great. Differences of opinion are great. That's why there is more > > > than one > church. > > > People who think this guy is the worst thing to come > along since the > > > Inquisition have every right to their opinion. Heck, even those > > > people > who > > > are calling in the death threats have the right to their opinion. > > > Just > not > > > to act on it. > > > > > > > > The coverage I have seen (TV, Radio, Internet) have shown that > > > > many of > > > those in the "against" camp are of the witch-burning > variety. Many > > > of > them > > > hold high positions in the Anglican Church. That is what > I find sad > > > and > a > > > little bit funny. They don't see that their very actions are > diametrically > > > opposite of what they say they are fighting for. And they > guy they > > > are fighting against seems to be better at what they say they are > > > fighting > for > > > than they are. Funny. > > > > > > > > I do think most Christians (since they fall in the "most people" > category) > > > are selfish, self absorbed, and quite capable of not only hating, > > > but > actual > > > being proud of hating. > > > > > > > > I also never said their (our) religion was invalid. I think its > > > > great. > And > > > I hope that someday they will _follow_ it a little more. > > > > > > > > Jerry Johnson > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/06/03 12:32PM >>> > > > > I would say that your church is in the minority, and that you > > > > don't go > to > > > > church enough, and that you need to find a church where > you feel > > > > that > your > > > > personality is more like those of the congregation. > > > > > > > > I love my church, I have a good time going, and I don't > find most > people > > > to > > > > be hypocrital, just human. It sounds as though you > expect all of > > > > your church goers to be practically perfect - that just > isn't so. > > > > If you subscribe to tolerance, don't be bothered by what others > > > > do, just live > the > > > > right life yourself. > > > > > > > > Take a minute and listen to what the bible-thumbers > have to say in > it's > > > > entirety, and you'll realize that it's not about hate > at all, it's > about > > > > different opinions than yours regarding some issues. > Not to say > > > > that > > > there > > > > is not hate, but it's mostly not. > > > > > > > > It sounds like your opinion of your church leads to you > think that > most > > > > Christians are people filled with hate and therefore their > > > > religion is invalid. How's that for intolerance? > You're blaming > > > > an entire > religion > > > for > > > > the problems that you have your your church. I'm sure that you > > > > don't > know > > > > the people that I go to church with. They are the > nicest group of > people > > > > that I've ever had the chance to be affliated with. > > > > > > > > Matthew Small > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Jerry Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:01 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Yet another scumbag parent.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, I am a Christian. Methodist to be precise. > > > > > > > > > > But I don't often go to Church. > > > > > > > > > > I find that the Church, and most of those who practice the > > > > > Christian > > > > religions, somewhat hypocritical. (And I do know this is an > > > > insult.) > > > > > They preach love and tolerance, but seldom practice it. And > > > > > don't > really > > > > try too hard. Nor feel bad about it when they don't. > They tend to > > > > be > > > really > > > > good haters. And if you don't toe the line exactly as > they define > > > > it > (and > > > > there are hundreds of lines, all drawn in different places) you > > > > are a > bad, > > > > bad person, and deserve all you get. > > > > > > > > > > As for this guy, I truly don't care one way or another. If his > > > > congregation is for him, that's what matters to me. > > > > Intellectually. It doesn't really matter to me at all in the > > > > overall sense. But I do get > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
