remarks.
I'm not concerned with keeping money in the US. The free flow of commerce is
part of the world economy. What I'd like is for the companies who are American
to invest where they live. If a company has over 50% of their work done in
another country, they should be taxed as a foreign company with an American
office.
Am I concerned with the fact that experienced programmers who have given years
of loyalty to a company are being let go for inexperienced, cheap labor? Yes.
These companies are saying that they don't care about their employees, their
reputation or the quality of their work. Why would anyone give their ideas,
inventions, talent or anything to a company that has shown itself to treat its
employees as numbers only? Why should I as a consumer trust IBM products anymore
when I know that the tight code of the past will be written by inexperienced
people who aren't even in the same country as the management. I once spent 3
months getting the business logic for a program together. The program is 150
lines of patented code. I highly doubt that the person I wrote the code for
could get anywhere near the same thing if he had to be talking to another
country for months to someone who is ESL. It would have taken a year alone on
the business logic and the code may have taken another year at 10 times the
size.
Am I saying this due to racism? No. I'm saying it based on factual experience. A
company I was with tried this route and it was a failure to the point of
lawsuit. Getting the 'other' company to understand the concept we wanted got us
a bunch of nodding heads and 'uh huh's like they knew what they were doing.
Riiiight.
This is the same thing as sweatshop labor used to make sneakers. Ship the jobs
off to places where you don't have to pay more than a few cent on the man-hour.
Sneakers, jeans, programs. Makes the term made in America a sham for some
companies.
> Okay... so... Let me make sure I understand you:
>
> You're not concerned about keeping money in the US -- you're just
> concerned about keeping money in the pockets of those who were
> well-off in the US prior to economic decline?
>
> Or you're only concerned specifically about the pensions of older
> programmers who're having their higher paying jobs farmed out?
>
> Or are you just saying it's a good idea but too little too late? If
> you're talking about the long term (as you said), what starts out
> small may become large in the long-run, and may recoup a lot of what
> the large companies are doing now.
>
> Personally I think every little bit should count. Every little bit has
> the _potential_ to have results which go beyond our expectations.
> And... by traning and employing American Indians even if I don't make
> a large dent in the US economy as a whole, I can still help people in
> desperate need of work and improve their local economy. Even if I fail
> to be a global influence, I can still succeed in making the world a
> better place for those around me. Not everyone can change the world as
> an individual (I don't believe I can), but everyone _can_ pitch in.
>
>
> > Cute idea but it does not deal with the root issue here.
> > Americans who have put
> > time and effort into learning to program, some with years
> > and years of
> > experience are being shucked by American companies for
> > cheap overseas labor.
> > Training American Indians, Mexicans, Canadians or anyone
> > else closer to America
> > will not address that fact. IBM, the big iron of the tech
> > world has dropped
> > people with 20 years experience with them to move to
> > India. Made in America
> > means nothing to these people, only the bottom line.
> > Well, here's a bottom line. A few years down the road
> > there will be less
> > American programmers for lack of work. Less college
> > classes on programming for
> > lack of end results (i.e. work). Less American anything in
> > software because it's
> > all been shipped off to other countries to be done. When
> > we're behind every
> > other country in the world tech wise because we've shipped
> > it all out, when
> > we're behind every other country production wise because
> > we've shipped it all
> > out (Levi is a perfect example), then where will we be?
> > Another creaking
> > dinosaur like Russia? A wannabe power remembering our days
> > on top? We used to
> > drain the top tech people from other countries. Now we're
> > sending them away.
> > I fear for our future. I fear for what America is doing to
> > itself.
> > Penny wise, pound foolish is an understatement here. A
> > penny saved today and a
> > nation lost tomorrow. But then again, that's my take on
> > it.
>
>
> >> I'm not sure where this will lead, but here is an
> >> initiative I think
> >> deserves serious consideration.
> >>
> >> I'm contemplating moving my own business to this
> >> reservation:
> >> http://www.alabama-coushatta.com/
> >>
> >> The tentative plan is to hire on and train some of the
> >> younger tribe
> >> members as web applications developers and do the work
> >> remotely on the
> >> reservation, while sending sales people to find work for
> >> them in the
> >> larger markets throughout the US.
> >>
> >> Here are my pros and con's as compared to hiring out to
> >> India (with
> >> the assumption that the remote software development
> >> business model
> >> works).
> >>
> >> PRO:
> >>
> >> 1) The money stays in the US and benefits some of our
> >> most
> >> economically depressed citizens. Business trips when
> >> desirable are
> >> also less expensive.
> >>
> >> 2) American Indians by and large speak English rather
> >> than
> >> English-ASL, which will mitigate communication gaps and
> >> errors in
> >> translation.
> >>
> >> 3) The US Government offers financial assistance in the
> >> form of grants
> >> and I believe some loans to minority businesses.
> >>
> >> CON:
> >>
> >> 1) American Indian workers are probably still slightly
> >> more expensive
> >> than workers on the Indian sub-continent.
> >>
> >> 2) American Indian workers will likely require more
> >> training. I'm
> >> banking on their being eager learners. :)
> >>
> >> 3) Some reservations may not have pre-existing
> >> infrastructure to make
> >> remote networking easy.
> >>
> >> I'm not saying it's a complete solution to anyone's
> >> problems. I do
> >> think the idea deserves attention, possibly even
> >> legislative
> >> attention.
> >>
> >> s. isaac dealey 972-490-6624
> >>
> >> team macromedia volunteer
> >> http://www.macromedia.com/go/team
> >>
> >> chief architect, tapestry cms http://products.turnkey.to
> >>
> >> onTap is open source
> >> http://www.turnkey.to/ontap
> >>
> >>
> >> > I'm voting for whoever can bring jobs back to America.
> >> > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/10/04/india.jobs.r
> >> > eut
> >> > /index.html
> >>
> >> > --
> >> > Michael Dinowitz
> >> > Finding technical solutions to the problems you didn't
> >> > know you had yet
> >> >
> >
>
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