Mr Buzzy, sorry to disagree, but that's not what Scott is doing here at the moment (not this time, LOL :) - actually I think he has raised a few very good points in regards to ColdFusion and its situation in Australia.
BTW: If you think that CF is bad in Aussie, come to New Zealand for a change, you'll find that it's even worse. Sure there are a good bunch of shops (including ourselves) doing CF besides other Adobe or 3rd party technologies. A lot of CF-spin off is driven by various CMS solutions, might it be FarCry, might it be Shado and there are obviously the occasional small CF custom-build sites - besides a few really large ones like the NZ Herald etc. What I find from my own experience with CF here is that it depends on what type of work you're after. If you're into the market of building websites for end-customers, small/medium enterprises etc where you might have the decision to choose a technology, then CF can work. If one is looking for consulting work or developing in a larger CF team instead, it's difficult to impossible. I can say honestly that all of our CF work at the moment is overseas and not based in NZ. It's a very different story with Flex, there's a good domestic as well as international demand. With a realistic view on government in NZ I can say that I know one very small government agency (not even a ministry etc) that uses CF - but they've been very close to jumping ship towards .NET a few times. Why most of them are using .NET is pretty easy to answer - because (like it or not) Microsoft is doing a great job in lobbying CEOs, CIOs and middle management. Their ability of doing that lobbying work is obviously driven by a significantly larger war chest and budget for marketing, events etc. And as much as I think the CF platform itself is superior to .NET or pure Java for a lot of web development jobs and how much I try to evangelize CF - it's as easy as that: I don't have the time and the power to do Adobe's work. I, as a user group manager and as an Adobe Solution Partner, can just assist them here, but it's not my job to sell and lobby CF to CIOs and other upper management levels. Believe me, if Adobe offered me a job as ANZ CF evangelist I might actually consider taking it because there IS A NEED (there is a need for 2-5 people focussing on evangelizing Adobe technologies imho, but that's a different story). The problem is that unless senior management at Adobe don't see this need, it won't happen. Note one point: We have a local Sales Director in NZ now and since he has started, things have improved hundreds of percent, Adobe actually has an official voice now in the country which is great! All of the Adobe folks in AU I know are doing a great job - but obviously they are limited to whatever head office in the US is providing them with in regards to resourcing, funding and staffing local operations - particular when it comes to ColdFusion. Cheers, Kai >This is exactly what I hate about Microsoft. They blind you with noise, >give you a whole lot of crap you don't need. > >Using ASP.net and such is a massive assumption that the general populous >will continue to use Windows. There's a few people at Gartner saying >Windows is dead :) > >Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft way' is >not the solution for everything (which generally is what microsoft >people will evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now). > >On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly >on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did >an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent >body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year >if you decide to get bored with the idea. > >It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is >whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what >recognition do they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry >Beattie comes to mind a lot when I think of this). > >I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my >boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this >one topic. > >Suffice to say the following: > >There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the ranking >officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other >languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring >the Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them? >There is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be billboards, >events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst other means. We >had really small budget to market Silverlight with last year, we made it >scale and that product was zero install in January last year. >There is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand and i >encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is >a large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being 100% >loyal to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities whom >may not like your technology preferences, but i guarantee you, they will >respect you as professional for looking at theres. Diversity is key, as >it forms relationship and fosters various adoption lifecyles that >benefit all. If you're not getting the numbers you need with a UG, look >at merging or colloborating with others. People donate 1-2hrs of their >personal time to attend these, make them feel its an investment, not a chore. >The old days are gone. Who cares what happened in the last 3-5 years. >What people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years. >Cynergy Systems for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas "we're >announcing our support of Silverlight" and they did so because they >believed in our roadmap and our vision for the future. I have countless >more stories like this, roadmaps are currency as todays' technology >weakness is tomorrow's strength. I won't preach at you, but ask yourself >a simple question, where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not >just the server itself but the surrounding ecosystem. >There is lack of rapid prototyping. Rapid prototyping is something more >and more companies are looking for daily. if you can't produce a >solution in minimal time, whilst your competitor can, weigh up what >you're doing and why you are doing it that way. Broaden your horizons >and understand that it's not about quality, it's mostly about quantity. >Ruby On Rails, can be the most awful solution known to man in the wrong >hands, and it sadly does end up in the wrong hands a lot, but the reason >why it had a nice amount of run on the boards was simply because it >empowered engineers to pump out solutions rapidly. >There is lack of community spirit. Go to a CFUG? what value does one >get? It's an open ended question. If all folks get is to see a video or >presentation they can view online anyway then what value are you adding >to peoples lives. Whom are you inviting to speak and what value are they >offering? Are you talking to the same people? Is debating on CFAussie >really the right place to do so? and so on... where is your aggregation >point for the CF virgin out there? how does one sound a bell and all >flock to a single rally point and what is that rally point? >CF locally "is" or "isn't" on the decline really is not the argument >here. Assume for this exercise it is, say there entire system is about >to crumble and FUD is based of truth. Now what would you do differently >to change that and how would you execute it? I say this as we >assume .NET is losing numbers daily and we expect it to grow by 20% each >year and that's what we do, we work hard to make it grow year on year. >We never relax as being successful is really easy, staying successful, >now that is truly an art. > >When I joined the CF Community many years ago, CFUG.org.au for one was >my entrance, the people I meet throughout my career have been remarkable >and have been close friends. I have a lot of good and bad stories to >tell around this language and I'll be honest, it's something I hope to >instill into the Silverlight/WPF community world-wide going forward. I >understood what makes a technology community great, and it wasn't brand >worship or individuals within Macromedia/Adobe we should worship, it was >more the people around the brand/company. Folks you looked up to and >respected because they knew xyz feature better than any and would drop >what they were doing to educate you on it. > >Anyway, enough my nostalgia, fact is there is a lot of weaknesses in >Coldfusion right now and seeing a lot jobs for CF is one thing, seeing a >lot of the same jobs a month later is equally as bad as not seeing jobs >for Coldfusion. There's a distinction in quality vs quantity there. > > > > >On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 8:09 AM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >No offence Peter & Charlie, > > > >But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job market >is nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years. > > > >The point I made to Sean was simple, if the sales of Coldfusion is >stronger than ever before. Why are the jobs for Coldfusion not >increasing? And since that discussion nothing has changed. > > > >The perception is still the same, now whether we get out there more and >promote the product is not the issue. But whether Adobe get out there >and help us out more on this issue as well. > > > >But till there is a market shift in more jobs, this could be discussed >for the next 5 years and that's when I want to see more jobs for >Coldfusion developers. But right now what incentive is a prospective >Coldfusion developer have if there is no job for him/her to go too? > > > >Same words, same argument only 5 years later. > > > >Andrew Scott > > > > > > > >From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of charlie arehart >Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 3:19 AM > >To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com >Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not >FUD from them too? > > > >Good on ya, Pete. :-) And good point about how more may be being done >than is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may >seem like we're making no progress. Good to point out that there are >indeed some efforts underway. > > > >/charlie > > > >From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Peter Bell >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM >To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com >Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not >FUD from them too? > > > >And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think >people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented >at ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the >British Computer Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code >Generation 2007. In each case there are some pretty influential >developers and in each case I mention the language I use and why I >choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or Java. > > > >Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that >nobody within the community knows when it's being done! > > > >Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint >getting the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . . > > > >Best Wishes, > >Peter > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. 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