Yes - I own a copy of that very volume, purchased for me by my friend Jim
Korn, for that purpose but the NuVoc detailed pages had enough of that idea
that I felt no need to slavishly reproduce the older example.


On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 8:52 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sandra Pakin, and Ray Polivka, authored a number of good introductory &
> reference books for APL.
> Thanks for reminding me, Devon.
>
> Google (bless its little cotton socks) was most helpful. There's an online
> copy of the APL\360 Reference Manual here:
>
> http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/Books/
> APL360ReferenceManual
> It lacks the lavish typographic aids we have today, but could serve as a
> gold-standard for future work.
>
> One could simply go through it and copy its style and layout for J – or
> whatever variant "one" wishes to promote.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Devon McCormick <devon...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > My favorite APL test was Sandra Pakin's reference manual: most APL
> > primitives were defined abstractly on one page, then examples of usage
> were
> > shown on the facing page.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:52 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > So I'm not sure this helps you,
> > >
> > > Be sure it does.
> > >
> > > 1. I spent precious years receiving a stream of people who were not IT
> > > professionals, and didn't want to be, but had IT rammed down their
> > throats.
> > > To wit: wives of IBM Hursley staff, who signed up for a Human Factors
> Lab
> > > subject panel.
> > > I briefed them, measured their IQ, then sat behind 1-way glass and
> > watched
> > > them perform on a simulated IT system developed specially for HF
> > > experiments.
> > > Then I watched and edited the video, audio and keystroke logs for hours
> > > until I had their difficulties pinned out like butterflies.
> > > We published a raft of papers in IJMMS and other applied psychology
> > > journals. We got a mean reputation in those circles. We were the
> Apaches.
> > > More usefully, we showed cocksure programmers how people (…intelligent
> > > people -- we had proof of that) floundered and foundered when using
> their
> > > wonderful software. Then we helped them up off the floor and stopped
> them
> > > shooting themselves.
> > >
> > > A CIA torture chamber couldn't have done it better (we were equipped
> like
> > > one, but without the funnels and buckets of water.)
> > >
> > > It develops an attitude. Yes – I too am aware that other people tend to
> > be
> > > different from me.
> > >
> > > 2. My Gilman and Rose had a red cover. I hated the book – oversized,
> > > expensively produced pretentious twaddle. I believe it convinced a
> > > generation that everything they said about APL was true. There was
> > NOTHING
> > > about writing and maintaining a distributable app in it. NOTHING about
> > > solving meaningful problems to the vast majority of people. It was all
> > > "here's this stellar galactic language of the gods. Bow down and
> grovel."
> > >
> > > By contrast I finger APWJ (At Play With J) and Cliff Reiter's book as
> > polar
> > > opposites. Those are clear-eyed, clear-voiced books that make toast of
> > > formidable problems which actually look useful to know something about.
> > If
> > > there's one book that converted me to J, it was APWJ.
> > >
> > > (BTW they say that J-ottings is in the pipeline. I thrill to think of
> > it.)
> > >
> > > 3. Yea…h. Concrete Math had things going for it. So did the books
> > produced
> > > by the I-APL project. Alvord and Thompson. I loved Gary Helzer's
> manual.
> > I
> > > could actually engage in Joy-in-the-Law over it.
> > >
> > > (I think I've said enough.)
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:11 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Eh... for me that was the J Dictionary, the J Concrete Math book and
> > > > the J Source book. But that was for me...
> > > >
> > > > (Also, before that, I'd gotten quite a lot out of the Gilman and Rose
> > > > book on APL (it had a red cover though - and when I search for it, I
> > > > find a different version with a green cover - I do not know how
> > > > significant the version differences are)).
> > > >
> > > > But also, I've learned long ago that other people tend to be
> different
> > > > from me.
> > > >
> > > > So I'm not sure this helps you,
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Raul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > Thanks, Joe.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have Introductions to J coming out my ears. And before that,
> > > > > Introductions to APL. IMFFHO they all miss the boat.
> > > > > I think at long last I can now write one which touches the button
> > for a
> > > > > bona fide J know-nothing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Arrogance? Not a bit of it. I've simply looked at what other (more
> > > > > popular/successful) language systems do.
> > > > >
> > > > > In a nutshell – what we don't.
> > > > >
> > > > > IF you have a treatment to-hand which you read when you genuinely
> > knew
> > > > > nothing about J
> > > > > ANDIF it motivated you to invest your scarce time in engaging with
> > the
> > > > > language
> > > > > THEN I'd like to see it.
> > > > > ELSE.
> > > > > * * * * *
> > > > > This doesn't look good as I re-read it, I have to admit. But I'm
> too
> > > old
> > > > to
> > > > > be polite if it means not being honest.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Joe Bogner <joebog...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Ah, I see. I thought to mention just in case the typical
> programmer
> > > > domain
> > > > >> vocabulary could be avoided or replaced with more J-like terms,
> > which
> > > > seems
> > > > >> to intentionally have chosen simpler, more recognizable terms.  I
> > > > presumed
> > > > >> you were familiar with some of the existing material but I find it
> > > > useful
> > > > >> to refresh my memory on what's out there when starting something
> > new.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm curious, are you writing a "first-contact" text for J? I have
> > read
> > > > >> through several Introduction to J type blog posts or essays over
> the
> > > > years
> > > > >> that I can pass along if you're interested. There may be something
> > to
> > > > lift
> > > > >> or compare to style-wise.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Sorry, Joe, I want "common programmer terms" for "platform,
> > program,
> > > > >> etc",
> > > > >> > i.e. terms common to all programmers, not just J-ers.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Especially not J-ers!
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I tried looking up some of these terms in the Oxford Dictionary
> of
> > > > >> English
> > > > >> > (courtesy Apple) and I'm impressed. It seems it has
> authoritative
> > > but
> > > > >> > straightforward meanings under the subheading "Computing" for
> all
> > > I've
> > > > >> > tried
> > > > >> > .
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > But I'm still hoping to hear what ISO standard people on this
> list
> > > > use,
> > > > >> or
> > > > >> > some standards body. I'm taking the baffled silence to mean that
> > > > nobody
> > > > >> has
> > > > >> > ever used such a list. The fabled precision of IT professionals
> > > > doesn't
> > > > >> > extend to terminology, it seems.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Such lists exist. I've seen them – though only in German, and
> that
> > > was
> > > > >> > decades ago. Documenters need them for the purpose of
> translating
> > > > >> manuals.
> > > > >> > Though maybe the whole thing is still woolly, like it was in my
> > day.
> > > > An
> > > > >> > Arab once told me he always used the English manual because he
> > > > couldn't
> > > > >> > make head or tail of the Arabic one.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Joe Bogner <joebog...@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > I went back and looked at some of the existing material
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This seems to be a good list of definitions with examples:
> > > > >> > > http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This text seems devoid of too many terms:
> > > > >> > > http://www.jsoftware.com/books/pdf/easyj.pdf
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Of course, I'm not reading these with "beginner eyes" so both
> > may
> > > > still
> > > > >> > > need to be unpacked more
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Ian Clark <
> > earthspo...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > > It's absurdly difficult to write a good "first-contact" text
> > > for J
> > > > >> > > without
> > > > >> > > > reference to a single accepted source of definitions like:
> > > > platform,
> > > > >> > > > program, app, script, variable, constant, function, array,
> > > string,
> > > > >> > > > character, number …
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > Is there an ISO standard for common programmer terms (in
> > > English)?
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > If the answer is: legion (…my first impression) – then is
> > there
> > > > one
> > > > >> > that
> > > > >> > > > stands out for you?
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > I have an operational need for a weblink to a good clear
> > > published
> > > > >> free
> > > > >> > > > authoritative text. To avoid cluttering this thread, please
> > > don't
> > > > >> offer
> > > > >> > > > your own definitions of the above terms here (although of
> > course
> > > > I'd
> > > > >> be
> > > > >> > > > frightfully interested to hear them one day.)
> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> > > > >> ----------
> > > > >> > > > For information about J forums see
> http://www.jsoftware.com/
> > > > >> forums.htm
> > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ----------
> > > > >> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> > > > forums.htm
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ----------
> > > > >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> > > > forums.htm
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----------
> > > > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> > > forums.htm
> > > > >>
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> > forums.htm
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> forums.htm
> > > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Devon McCormick, CFA
> >
> > Quantitative Consultant
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>



-- 

Devon McCormick, CFA

Quantitative Consultant
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

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