I too confess to finding the word "Phrase" to be too non-specific. To me a "phrase" is any coherent subexpression.
The J community is at liberty to find anything it is seeking. But a novice may see the term as one more peg on which is hung a hidden meaning. Conversely APL's "idiom" always seemed too strong to me: implying We Who Are In The Know attach more meaning to this phrase than a mere beginner would. It is also acquiring the additional meaning in APL: a phrase the interpeter recognises for optimisation. Useful phrases? Noteworthy phrases? We'll need a novice-friendly section heading for this in the new on-line Voc. In analogy with "soundbite", the word "codebite" springs to mind. But I'm not seriously proposing it as official terminology. Ian On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Roger Hui <[email protected]> wrote: > No, we are looking for "phrase" and we found it long ago. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Dykman <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 11:14 > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Newbie Musings 2: How I got to J > To: Chat forum <[email protected]> > >> from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saying >> >> Aphorism. A concise definition, notably memorable. >> Adage. An aphorism that has gained credibility by >> virtue of long use. >> >> Is it possible that we are looking for 'adage' here? >> >> - michael dykman >> >> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Roger Hui <[email protected]> wrote: >> > In natural languages, a phrase book would be quite >> > a different thing from a book of aphorisms. >> > A phrase book would contain practically useful items >> > like "Excuse me, where is the nearest toilet", >> > whereas an aphorism book would have things like >> > "I think, therefore I am." >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Dan Bron <[email protected]> >> > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:38 >> > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Newbie Musings 2: How I got to J >> > To: 'Chat forum' <[email protected]> >> > >> >> Björn wrote: >> >> > Just out of curiosity I would like to know if what APL >> >> called idioms >> >> > is also called idioms in J or if people prefer to call >> >> it phrases in J >> >> >> >> I don't like "phrases" because it is too generic; any J sentence >> >> or clause is a "phrase". Others deprecate "idioms" because it >> >> implies the meaning is unpredictable given the component words >> >> (e.g. "kick the bucket"), whereas the meaning of a J idiom is >> >> completely predictable from (in fact, is determined by) its >> >> components words. >> >> >> >> What we need is a word that means "common, useful, memorable >> >> phrase" or "a phrase that is so common it is essentially a word, >> >> and is >> >> easily recognized and recalled"*. How about: >> >> >> >> Aphorism: A concise definition, notably memorable. >> >> >> >> Of course, we have other choices: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saying . I love WP! >> >> >> >> -Dan >> >> >> >> * This "the phrase as a word" is the motivation for the use of >> >> "idiom", >> >> because as a word is composed of letters, and >> >> its meaning is >> >> unrelated to those letters, so a idiom is >> >> composed of words, and >> >> its meaning is unrelated to those words; I >> >> think there is a technical >> >> linguisitic term for these "component words", >> >> and I thought it was >> >> "lexemes", but WP disagrees. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
