<< * We all owe David a lot and we should remember to thank him, let him know how much we appreciate him.. and perhaps take out top-flight medical insurance for him. >>
... a voice in my head says Clojure and ClojureScript are open source so there must be others involved in its development and it's not David alone... I've assumed it's a bunch of people and entities like clojure.org and companies like cognitect are also contributing to its development... Maybe I asked the question 2 years too soon. But I hear you on how VCs would think about it. So maybe they're the wrong crowd then. Maybe education should be as it's been happening bottom up and directly engaging developers who may be running their own companies.... That's a better overall angle. Thank you Rob and I hope to see you again at Reagent meetup tomorrow either live or via Periscope. Dmitry Sotnikov is going to give a really good half an hour talk about Reagent, Om and Reagent-Template, followed by Dhruv whose talk about re-frame I'm really excited about, and a demo of reusable reagent components with app-state-troggered CSS transitions (and the challenges there) at the end of all of that. On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Rob Lally <[email protected]> wrote: > In my experience VCs aren’t as interested in people trying to move quickly > with niche technologies as they once were. 10 years ago it was different > when people saw that a Rails team could get products to market faster than > the existing enterprisey technologies and change direction faster than > lightweight technologies like PHP. That was then, now most startups claim > they’ll be fast because they have secret-sauce X & Y. A secret sauce is > just assumed. They’ll ask what it is and grill you on it, and you can blow > the deal that way, but you can’t win the funding on stack. > > On the other side, your tech-stack has to be exitable to attract their > attention. They have to be able to imagine the potential acquisitors and > how they’ll react to your choice of X. If they think it would put off the > mosts likely candidates that might be a problem, but it might not - that’s > a case by case judgement call. > > The third aspect is risk: how likely is a startup to fail just because > they chose the wrong tech? Startups are risky, and if you perceive people > to be taking foolish risks in technology, that doesn’t inspire confidence. > > So, where does cljs stand in respect to with those attributes? I don’t > know. I might suggest, not too well, if only because so much rests on the > inestimable David Nolen’s shoulders. If something terrible happened to him, > or he got bored or was overcome with a desire to only program in VB6, or… > well, I don’t know bright the cljs future is without him. > > Outside of clojurescript itself the ecosystem is interesting but very > 1-man project-centric. The only big exceptions are Om, back to David, or > Reagent, which still has a low volume of commits and a small community. > > Where was I going with all this? > > tl;dr; > > * Clojurescript may be a competitive advantage, but it isn’t an obviously > dominant one. > * It brings with it risks that would counterbalance the advantage from > certain people’s perspective. > * We all owe David a lot and we should remember to thank him, let him know > how much we appreciate him.. and perhaps take out top-flight medical > insurance for him. > > > Rob. > > > > > On 15 Apr 2015, at 08:40, Daniel Kersten <[email protected]> wrote: > > My startup is full stack clojure. I wouldn't be able to stick the > hardships of a startup if it weren't developed in something I care about. I > also find that the community is quite passionate and, since it's still > somewhat of a niche, it makes it easier to attract talent - quite a few > people saying they want to use clojure(script) day to day but less > competition from companies since fewer use clojure. We'll see how it pans > out long term, but for now it seems beneficial. I suppose I'll fund out as > we try to actually hire a load of these people if it helps or hinders us > but it seems to add a little novelty value. > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:35 Marc Fawzi <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I feel the same way and I assume many others share the sentiment and >> logic. >> >> My question is about finding an angle to have investors like YCombinator >> (esp that PG is big Lisp guy) to favor companies that use full stack >> Clojure or at least ClojureScript. The angle I'm thinking of is like so: >> Clojure/Script is a talent retention tool and startups will do better if >> they use it, if only for that reason, but the bigger reason for startups to >> use it is that it helps programmers become better at their craft, leading >> to superior products and superior teams. If this theory is anecdotally >> "proven" then we can give plenty of real examples. >> >> Yup, just trying to find an angle, if there is one, to get more startups >> using Clojure/Script so we can all enjoy a bigger and more diverse >> ecosystem.... Surely, this is the same wish most practitioners have. So >> maybe we can get the community behind a Clojure/Script education campaign, >> or just seeding that thought.... >> >> :) >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:26 AM, Brian J. Rubinton < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Is your question more generally, are employees more engaged / >>> productive / loyal when given the opportunity to use cutting edge tools? >>> (and do VCs recognize such tools as a competitive advantage vs an >>> unnecessary risk that makes hiring difficult?) >>> >>> Or, is your question whether Clojure/Script is such a tool? >>> >>> Personally, the only reason I considered my current employer is because >>> the team is full stack Clojure. For me this is a huge source of job >>> stickiness. I feel like I'm becoming a better programmer faster -- I'm >>> learning more -- using Clojure than I would using traditional tools. For >>> that reason my first question of any other opportunity is whether they use >>> a tool with similar promise. >>> >>> PG's "Beating the Averages" feels relevant here: >>> http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html >>> That's from the entrepreneur's perspective. Not sure whether the broader >>> VC community agrees. >>> >>> - Brian >>> >>> On 4/15/15 9:48 AM, Marc Fawzi wrote: >>> >>> fixed title.... would like to discuss in person with other interested >>> folks if not suitable for the mailing list... :) >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Marc Fawzi <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey everyone, >>>> >>>> Would you say that Clojure/Script, owing to its relative obscurity and >>>> great design, can be a talent retention tool for startups? >>>> >>>> I feel more motivated to go to work every day and more stickiness with >>>> my employer as a direct consequence of working with ClojureScript and >>>> Reagent. >>>> >>>> Do you think this is a general phenomenon? >>>> >>>> If so, what can we do to educate the VC community as to the advantages >>>> of funding startups that use Clojure/Script? Could this ever fly? >>>> >>>> Or is it a situation where most of the world outside this mailing list >>>> (and a few other ones) views ClojureScript as a science experiment? >>>> >>>> Just very curious. If the consensus on this is positive im sure a few >>>> of us determined souls would be inclined to *help* educate the VCs and >>>> startups thru a potentially crowd funded direct education campaign... Or >>>> community good will. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "ClojureScript" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojurescript. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "ClojureScript" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojurescript. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >> your first post. >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "ClojureScript" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojurescript. >> > > -- > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ClojureScript" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojurescript. > > > -- > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ClojureScript" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojurescript. > -- Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ClojureScript" group. 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