> On 15 Apr 2015, at 18:12, Marc Fawzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <<
> * We all owe David a lot and we should remember to thank him, let him know
> how much we appreciate him.. and perhaps take out top-flight medical
> insurance for him.
> >>
>
> ... a voice in my head says Clojure and ClojureScript are open source so
> there must be others involved in its development and it's not David alone...
> I've assumed it's a bunch of people and entities like clojure.org
> <http://clojure.org/> and companies like cognitect are also contributing to
> its development…
I don’t want to be seen as diminishing anyone else’s contributions, only
recognising what David has done for us. A quick git analysis shows that he’s
both the #1 and #2 committer to clojurescript:
git shortlog -s -n --all
1562 David Nolen
287 dnolen
204 Brenton Ashworth
164 fogus
95 Michał Marczyk
93 Rich Hickey
89 Chouser
74 Stuart Halloway
49 Bobby Calderwood
40 Frank Failla
...
>
> Maybe I asked the question 2 years too soon.
>
> But I hear you on how VCs would think about it. So maybe they're the wrong
> crowd then. Maybe education should be as it's been happening bottom up and
> directly engaging developers who may be running their own companies....
>
> That's a better overall angle.
>
> Thank you Rob and I hope to see you again at Reagent meetup tomorrow either
> live or via Periscope.
Sadly, work commitments will keep me away. I look forward to watching the
videos though.
>
> Dmitry Sotnikov is going to give a really good half an hour talk about
> Reagent, Om and Reagent-Template, followed by Dhruv whose talk about re-frame
> I'm really excited about, and a demo of reusable reagent components with
> app-state-troggered CSS transitions (and the challenges there) at the end of
> all of that.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Rob Lally <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> In my experience VCs aren’t as interested in people trying to move quickly
> with niche technologies as they once were. 10 years ago it was different when
> people saw that a Rails team could get products to market faster than the
> existing enterprisey technologies and change direction faster than
> lightweight technologies like PHP. That was then, now most startups claim
> they’ll be fast because they have secret-sauce X & Y. A secret sauce is just
> assumed. They’ll ask what it is and grill you on it, and you can blow the
> deal that way, but you can’t win the funding on stack.
>
> On the other side, your tech-stack has to be exitable to attract their
> attention. They have to be able to imagine the potential acquisitors and how
> they’ll react to your choice of X. If they think it would put off the mosts
> likely candidates that might be a problem, but it might not - that’s a case
> by case judgement call.
>
> The third aspect is risk: how likely is a startup to fail just because they
> chose the wrong tech? Startups are risky, and if you perceive people to be
> taking foolish risks in technology, that doesn’t inspire confidence.
>
> So, where does cljs stand in respect to with those attributes? I don’t know.
> I might suggest, not too well, if only because so much rests on the
> inestimable David Nolen’s shoulders. If something terrible happened to him,
> or he got bored or was overcome with a desire to only program in VB6, or…
> well, I don’t know bright the cljs future is without him.
>
> Outside of clojurescript itself the ecosystem is interesting but very 1-man
> project-centric. The only big exceptions are Om, back to David, or Reagent,
> which still has a low volume of commits and a small community.
>
> Where was I going with all this?
>
> tl;dr;
>
> * Clojurescript may be a competitive advantage, but it isn’t an obviously
> dominant one.
> * It brings with it risks that would counterbalance the advantage from
> certain people’s perspective.
> * We all owe David a lot and we should remember to thank him, let him know
> how much we appreciate him.. and perhaps take out top-flight medical
> insurance for him.
>
>
> Rob.
>
>
>
>
>> On 15 Apr 2015, at 08:40, Daniel Kersten <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>> My startup is full stack clojure. I wouldn't be able to stick the hardships
>> of a startup if it weren't developed in something I care about. I also find
>> that the community is quite passionate and, since it's still somewhat of a
>> niche, it makes it easier to attract talent - quite a few people saying they
>> want to use clojure(script) day to day but less competition from companies
>> since fewer use clojure. We'll see how it pans out long term, but for now it
>> seems beneficial. I suppose I'll fund out as we try to actually hire a load
>> of these people if it helps or hinders us but it seems to add a little
>> novelty value.
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:35 Marc Fawzi <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> I feel the same way and I assume many others share the sentiment and logic.
>>
>> My question is about finding an angle to have investors like YCombinator
>> (esp that PG is big Lisp guy) to favor companies that use full stack Clojure
>> or at least ClojureScript. The angle I'm thinking of is like so:
>> Clojure/Script is a talent retention tool and startups will do better if
>> they use it, if only for that reason, but the bigger reason for startups to
>> use it is that it helps programmers become better at their craft, leading to
>> superior products and superior teams. If this theory is anecdotally "proven"
>> then we can give plenty of real examples.
>>
>> Yup, just trying to find an angle, if there is one, to get more startups
>> using Clojure/Script so we can all enjoy a bigger and more diverse
>> ecosystem.... Surely, this is the same wish most practitioners have. So
>> maybe we can get the community behind a Clojure/Script education campaign,
>> or just seeding that thought....
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:26 AM, Brian J. Rubinton <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> Is your question more generally, are employees more engaged / productive /
>> loyal when given the opportunity to use cutting edge tools? (and do VCs
>> recognize such tools as a competitive advantage vs an unnecessary risk that
>> makes hiring difficult?)
>>
>> Or, is your question whether Clojure/Script is such a tool?
>>
>> Personally, the only reason I considered my current employer is because the
>> team is full stack Clojure. For me this is a huge source of job stickiness.
>> I feel like I'm becoming a better programmer faster -- I'm learning more --
>> using Clojure than I would using traditional tools. For that reason my first
>> question of any other opportunity is whether they use a tool with similar
>> promise.
>>
>> PG's "Beating the Averages" feels relevant here:
>> http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html <http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html>
>> That's from the entrepreneur's perspective. Not sure whether the broader VC
>> community agrees.
>>
>> - Brian
>>
>> On 4/15/15 9:48 AM, Marc Fawzi wrote:
>>> fixed title.... would like to discuss in person with other interested folks
>>> if not suitable for the mailing list... :)
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Marc Fawzi <[email protected]
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> Would you say that Clojure/Script, owing to its relative obscurity and
>>> great design, can be a talent retention tool for startups?
>>>
>>> I feel more motivated to go to work every day and more stickiness with my
>>> employer as a direct consequence of working with ClojureScript and Reagent.
>>>
>>> Do you think this is a general phenomenon?
>>>
>>> If so, what can we do to educate the VC community as to the advantages of
>>> funding startups that use Clojure/Script? Could this ever fly?
>>>
>>> Or is it a situation where most of the world outside this mailing list (and
>>> a few other ones) views ClojureScript as a science experiment?
>>>
>>> Just very curious. If the consensus on this is positive im sure a few of us
>>> determined souls would be inclined to *help* educate the VCs and startups
>>> thru a potentially crowd funded direct education campaign... Or community
>>> good will.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
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