Ken Freeland wrote:
>
> [I HAVE TWO RESPONSES TO THIS:
Ken, first of all, Mondragon may not be quite the news you think it is. One
of the reasons why I personally don't respond any more to talk about
Mondragon is because I don't think that Mondragon has any answers to the
world-systemic crisis we are now deeply into, because what we need are not
uoptian (in the positive sense, I don't mean this derogatorily) solutions
for the post-crisis world, but practical kinds of politics which just make
sure there IS a postcrisis world. Secondly, in any case I don't believe
that Mondragon is such a positive thing in any case, (and I'm not alone in
being sceptical about it). For these two reasons, I am not going to discuss
Mondragon on this List, and unless you can show much more concretely how it
relates to the Crash, I don't think you should either.
Thirdly, I was not being sarcastic in seeing we might be falling off an
abyss. I mean it. And this is because of anthropological climate change,
even more than energy-deficits. Shortage of energy affects citybound humans.
Runaway warming, which will boil the seas and turn the atmosphere into a
Venus-like toxic soup incapable of supporting life, is a real possibility.
If anyone doubts this, I'll post lots of chapter and verse (right after I
post stuff to the website about IPR's, which I am about to do). The
situation is much worse than people imagine. I just clipped this from the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] list, which has been discussing the question of
humidity:
startquote >>>It was the humidity over southern Minnesota again today.
Dew points today in over southern Minnesota were in the mid-upper 70
degrees Fahrenheit range.
The 8/10 on Minnesota Public Radio (MPR) discussion was on the recent
increase in frequency of tropical-like air in southern Minnesota and
southern Wisconsin. The program was led by MPR's Katherine Langford and
Professor Mark Seely, Climatologist from the University of Minnesota
Extension, scientist for soil, water, and climate.
Last summer, all time record high dew points were measured in Faribault,
Minnesota and Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
The frequency of dew points in the tropical range, 70 degrees or higher,
has greatly increased during the last five years. Mark Seely said that
we need to be weary of the trend to higher dew points, pointing out
concerns with our aging population and the difficulties encountered in
the regulation of stable body temperatures during high humidity periods.
Mark presented two theories for the higher dew points in recent years in
Minnesota and Wisconsin.
1. Changes in land use - Genetics, allowing for denser vegetative
growth, plus increased irrigation with more lands being used for crops.
More plants with an increase in the amount of water transpired by plants
into water vapor, thus higher humidity, and higher measured dew points.
2. Global warming - Warmer ocean waters. More available water from
glacial melting and rising sea levels. More water and warmer waters
allow for higher atmospheric humidity and higher dew point measurements.
Studies of global warming have indicated that the changes in temperatures
and the impacts of global warming will be most evident regionally, in
northern latitudes. That is what is happening. Thus, I conclude that
the higher dew points in the Upper Midwest over the last five years are
due to the acceleration in global warming during that period.
On 2/22/2000 NOAA reported that: "Researchers at the Commerce
Department's National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration have found
evidence that indicates that the rate of global warming is accelerating
and that in the past 25 years it achieved the rate previously predicted
for the 21st century (2 degrees C per century)."
Are we willing to risk all life that evolved over a period in excess of
four billion years because some people say that global warming seems
"unclear" and can't be proven with 100 percent certainty? How long are
we willing to wait, before action is taken?
Don't we usually try to act on the side of safety rather than risk the
more harmful consequences of no action, later on?
Shouldn't we support a proposal to give financial incentives to people
that limit their energy use and travel by air and personal motor
vehicles? See: http://danenet.wicip.org/bcp/
How many people have reduced smoking, or quit, to prevent the onset of
cancer ? I'm not 100 percent certain of that. I quit smoking. I never
want to fly again.
In a related program on MPR, 8/8/2000, Professors at the University of
Minnesota John Dicky (Astronomy) and Robert Lysic (Physics) were
interviewed by Catherine Langford about the discovery of new planets.
I was the first caller, and asked for an explanation on why the
Atmosphere on Venus is extremely hot. The explanation is that the
during the evolution of the atmosphere on Venus, a point was reached
where runaway greenhouse gases occurred, causing the extreme heat that
persists (over 800 degrees Fahrenheit). The extremely high temperatures
in the atmosphere on Venus cannot be explained by the relative closer
distance from Venus to the sun, than Earth to the sun.
Professor of astronomy John Dicky added: "If we should get to that
point we probably would go down the same road, and its not at all clear
that that couldn't happen to the Earth. It very well could happen. So
we have to be careful. Venus is an example of how you can go wrong."
Some people think that a discussion of other planets is out of this
world. In trying to understand the atmosphere on Earth, and the
acceleration in the warming of Earth's atmosphere, the atmosphere on
Venus is the most reasonable comparison to make. Is it not?
Pat Neuman
Chanhassen, MN
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<<< endquote
None of this should be news to anyone on this list. The question is, what to
do about it?
Ken, you go on to talk about life in Eastern Europe. I lived in Russia for
ten years off and of, 1985-1995. So I have my well-formed view of the place.
But again, I'm not going to get into a discussion about the rights and
wrongs of the USSR here. There are other fora. I feel the same way when you
and others talk about the market, the value of labour etc. I've been guilty
myself of doing this, but I'm not going to do it any more. These are
*irrelevajnt issues*. They are side issues. If the capitalist-world system,
or the human lifeworld, whatever you want to call it, is entering an impasse
or terminal crisis, you may say that the question of the validity of
different systems (markets, so-called socialism, co-operatives etc) has
already been finally, definitively answered by history itself. But in any
case, it's absolutely clear that neither markets nor USSR-style socialism
nor worker co-ops have anything at all to say about how to deal with *this
present crisis*, how to persuade people of its urgency and of the desperate
need to act now to forestall it, if that is possible. I doubt if it IS
possible, but I'm a rooted optimist about life, especially this week which
is the first anniversary of being told by my oncologists that I had less
than 2 months to live and should start making my arrangements. Where there's
life there's hope. But there is no hope if the best thing we can do when
faced by the possibility of runaway warming AND mass dieoffs, is to start
talking about the Tobin tax or Mondragon or the ins and outs of Stalin.
Mark
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