[CTJUG Forum] Re: Employment

Wed, 05 Jul 2006 05:30:15 -0700

Start walking, Denver ....
 

Kind regards from

Heinz
--
Dr. Heinz M. Kabutz (Maximum Solutions)
Sun Java Champion
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http://www.javaspecialists.co.za
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Skype: kabutz

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Java Mad
Sent: 05 July 2006 13:36
To: [email protected]
Subject: [CTJUG Forum] Re: Employment

Thank you Werner,
At least you get the drift im getting at.
 
Oh almost forgot
Heinz, im struggling to get to Europe
Will you sponsor me to get to Greece or am i asking to much

Werner Britz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi, just to give you some perspective from my experience...
 
I've been working in IT for the last 6 yrs and really tried to move to a Java environment.  People said develop in your free time to get java working experience, but easier said than done if you have a job taking more time than the normal 8-5 job.
 
I'm not looking for a Java position anymore and I've decided to move on and I'm making other plans for my future.
 
The point I'm trying to make is, that in the current java market in CT, it very difficult for a junior to enter the market.  Loads of potential great java developers (not taking about myself) will be lost to other development environments because of the fact that people who really want to work in Java can't enter the market.  And in the long run it's going to hurt the general java market as cpy might not find suitable Java developers for their needs and look at other solutions.
 
Regards, Werner
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 05 July 2006 12:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [CTJUG Forum] Re: Employment
 

Well put, that is an accurate summation of the situation.

On that basis then, those companies which hire people ready to roll do not have that much credibility when complaining about not being able to find good people. There are not enough good people because there are not enough companies willing to take on newbies and make them good.

Companies need to take a long term view, not that easy I know, and hire someone who is sharp (has good problem solving and thinking skills) but does not yet  have the knowledge for them to hit the ground running. Ability (intelligence and problem solving), I think, carries a higher weighting than experience/knowledge. Knowledge can be gained from a book and experience comes with time, but ability comes from within. Invest in the person and somehow tie them up for one, maybe two years if possible - the ideal approach in this regard is to find them while in their last year of university.

That's from the employers perspective.

From the employee's perspective:
When a company takes on a junior and provides them with a year of experience, the employee may not yet have performed sufficiently to move up a bracket - however, based on that employees one year of experience they can now go and sell themselves to another employer as a "higher bracket" developer even though they are in fact not worth the amount which the new employer is willing to pay. It is a result of the "contracting" approach that companies use, but I'm not sure that it is in the developers long term interests to employ this strategy.


 
"Carl Woermann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [email protected]
2006/07/05 09:37 AM
Please respond to
[email protected]
To
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Subject
[CTJUG Forum] Re: Employment
 
 
 



I think this phenomenon is the result of the industry... a lot of us do 3-6-12 month contracts - (so far I still have to get a permanent job offer myself) - the whole nature of the coding bussiness is that you come in do the work and disappear when done. (The up side is that you sometimes get paid a bit better than permanent staff - but that is another issue..).

As a result no long term relationships develops (as in for example investment of time) between employers and coders -  the traditional idea of doing "apprenticeship" time falls away and you have to deliver the movent you start working. Since many big companies are frustrated with the idea of hiring staff that does not deliver the moment they step into work they resort to using agents... who are just a cover for harder working/firing conditions, and get some of the fat in return. They also don't want to deliver unexperienced coders, (= unhappy emplyer and no fat) so there is no chance for you there.

So in the modern version of the apprenticeship is as follows: eventually you find someone with a tight enough budget to give you a try (he knows you are desparate and is willing to exploit that ! )--- hold on tight (for the lowest salary ever and the longest working hours) -- but after that you have the experience and are able to ask for what is due....
my say for the day..C

On 7/5/06, FBulovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Clint Lewis wrote:
> FOOD FOR THOUGHT
>
> So what does a fresh graduate with no experience fall under and also how
> does a graduate become a junior if companies are looking for Juniors
> with 1 years experience?
>
> Kind Regards
> Clint Lewis
>
>
>
> FBulovic wrote:
> > Qualification and more than one year of development in Java will do.
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >

There is few options:
1. find employer which does not require experience
2. join some open source project (or start yours) so that you can gain
experience
3. invent required experience

I am not working on that project and I am not making any decisions
related to it (I work on Symbian OS in C++), but about experience I can
tell you that I am willing to give job to any decent coder and usually
people fresh from university need some time to become coders. On the
other hand some project managers (all of them) just trying to finish
job and they do not find time, founding and so on to introduce people
without work experience to their companies. Again who would risk money
and time to educate beginner when in year or so that beginner wants to
move to another company (naturally looking for better salary than one
which goes with junior position).

Regards
FBulovic






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