Hi Greg, On 2021-08-04 1:31 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:35:29PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside > wrote: >> Go try IRC and you'll see that this "Gunnar" is far from a exception and >> trolling may be the rule on such system (IRC). > > At the moment, I see no evidence that Gunnar is trolling, although > obviously I could be mistaken. He seems to be struggling with the > English language, as well as the mailing list culture, as well as > the multiple technical problems he's having. > Maybe trolling wasn't the right word, I wasn't the one who used if first.
I've said he was having some type of personal crisis in expecting
immediate answer or write again.
> I'm guessing he has more experience with web forums, social media, or
> "chat" systems than he does with mailing lists. His approach is one
> that I've seen before, fortunately not often. What I've observed:
>
I agree with the difference between chat and mailing list.
> 1) He does not take his time to compose messages and consolidate all
...
> 2) His writing is disorganized, in a way that goes beyond struggling
...
> 3) He has information available that he is *not* giving us. This is the
...
I have to agree on what you wrote here (and that I removed to make it
easier). But as Debian is one of the operating system that get the most
support from community, it's possible that many person don't run the
Distribution but try to get help here.
> Here's what I would suggest to Gunnar, and to anyone else who is not
> getting the responses they want from a mailing list:
>
> 1) Only try to solve one problem at a time. Pick the problem that you
> want to solve first, and focus exclusively on that. Don't get
> side-tracked.
>
> 2) Put all of the information you have into one message. If people have
> to collect your information from multiple separate messages, it
> greatly reduces the chances that people will spend the time and
> energy required to do this.
>
> 3) Take your time writing. Mailing lists are not chat systems. You
> will not get an answer in seconds. The people who respond to you
> will also take their time, trying to compose a useful reply.
>
> Your message, and the responses to it, will be archived and available
> for the whole world to see, forever. Try to make a good impression.
>
> Be sure to proofread. Spelling, grammar, and content errors will all
> cause confusion, especially in readers who are not fluent in English,
> or who are not top-tier experts in whatever technical issue you're
> having. If you're not fluent in English, just do the best you can.
>
> 4) Actually compose your message. Don't just write random sentences;
> write something that's easy to follow.
>
> Try to structure your message the way you would structure a school
> essay. Paragraphs should be coherent, with a main point (topic)
> and supporting details. Events that occur in chronological sequence
> should be written that way ("first A happens, then B happens").
>
> Don't write more than you have to, but don't write *less* than you need
> either. Skipping steps in your writing makes it a lot harder for
> the reader to follow.
>
> 5) Make sure your goal is clear. The Subject: header should be a brief
> summary of your issue, and the first paragraph of the body should be
> a longer description of it. If a random stranger can't tell what
> you're trying to do after reading the first paragraph, then your
> message isn't clear enough yet.
>
> 6) Provide all of the necessary details. At a bare minimum, this should
> include which version of Debian you're running, because this *is* a
> Debian mailing list. If your problem isn't about Debian, it's not
> on topic.
>
> If you're having a problem, you should provide enough information to
> reproduce the problem. What steps do you perform, from start to
> finish? What do you see/hear? Does the problem happen every time,
> or only sometimes? If you can reproduce the problem in a terminal
> session, then please paste that terminal session into the body of
> your message. If the problem only happens in X or Wayland, try to
> describe what you're doing, and what's happening, as best you can.
>
> If you're trying to accomplish something, then there won't always
> be a description of steps taken, because you might not even know
> how to begin. But if you *did* try something already (which didn't
> work), it would be helpful to say what you tried, and what happened,
> and how this differs from your desired outcome.
>
> If you're using a specific piece of software, tell us exactly what it
> is -- its name and its version number. If it came from Debian, give
> us the Debian package's version number. If it did *not* come from
> Debian, be sure to say this, and tell us where it came from, and its
> upstream version number.
>
> 7) If people request additional information, please provide it. However,
> there's some judgment required here.
>
> Sometimes, people will request information you've already given; in
> these cases, you need to decide whether it's best to repeat yourself,
> or to point out the previous message containing the information, or
> to ignore this particular response for the moment.
>
> You may also want to wait a bit before providing additional information,
> in case other people ask for even more. If you get several requests
> for information, it's usually best if you consolidate them all and
> reply with a single message that contains *all* of the additional
> information. This goes back to the point about putting as much
> information as possible into a single message. It's *much* easier
> to help you if all of the inforation we need is in one place.
>
> That's probably enough for now.
>
That's somewhat what I also wrote, in different message and not in a so
well written fashion. I went for the easy way as he seem to struggle
with English.
And other have too, like referring the the xyproblem website.
--
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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