On 30 Jan 2014, at 18:05, Daniel Kulp <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I want the best experience for the end user of ActiveMQ - and that’s it - >> simple. > > If that’s your primary driver for the ActiveMQ project at Apache, we already > have a problem. The primary goal of an Apache project should be to build > the community of developers working on and contributing to the Apache > project. The goal needs to be to build a diverse and stable community for > the code.
Right - community of developers building code for ... > > I had a long email thread with Roy Fielding (if you don’t know who he is, > google him. Short answer is one of the Apache founders, on the Board of > Directors forever, etc….) about some of this back in December, mostly just to > get things completely straight in my own head. Unfortunately, it’s a > private conversation so I cannot paste directly from it, but basically the > thoughts come down to: > > 1) Apache is more than happy to point users that need a more “Enterprise > Experience” to the RedHat’s, the Talend’s, the Savoir Tech’s, etc… Even > pointing at other communities such as hawt.io. Apache recognizes that for > the projects to really succeed, people may need to make money off their > involvements. That’s NOT a bad thing. If users need a better console than > the Apache community provides, fine, let some other community/company provide > that. If they need 24x7 support, fine, let a company provide that. From > what I gather, most, if not all, of the board members would agree with that. > That said, Roy generally takes things even further and really doesn’t > think Apache should even provide binaries at all, just source, and those > companies could provide the enterprise binaries. That opinion is not shared > amongst all the board members. I agree > 2) HOWEVER, it’s very important that the projects remain fair and unbiased. > From the Apache projects standpoint, that basically means we cannot promote > particular third party companies/communities “add ons” or services over any > other. This applies to the releases, it applies to the website, etc…. As > a PMC, we can say “We provide a basic user experience, if you need more, here > is a list of options. Try them out and see what fits your needs.” As a > PMC, we cannot say “Just use hawt.io, it’s the only one worth looking at.” > The main reason is we WANT competitors and such to get involved with the > projects at Apache. They should be able to participate in the Apache stuff > without having to worry about how they compete with the non-Apache stuff. Yep - wouldn’t it be awesome if the console was pluggable - then anybody could choose what they want - which is something I wanted weeks ago. > > The reason #2 is important for this conversation is that if the PMC decided > to include hawt.io (providing the skinning/branding is fixed), it would also > HAVE to include any other third party console that met the same requirements. > It must be fair and unbiased. Thus, if I fork hawt.io, remove the fuse > stuff, add some Talend stuff, and publish that, ActiveMQ would also have to > ship that if asked. If Johan took the current console, forked it, cleaned it > up a bit, and released as open source, we’d have to include that as well. > Etc…. I don’t know about you, but in my opinion, shipping 5 consoles would > be confusing to people (and result in a gigantic bloated download). Yes hence make it pluggable. > > Dan > > > > On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:10 AM, Robert Davies <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Johan, >> >> its great to know that you are earning so much money from Apache ActiveMQ! >> >> I want the best experience for the end user of ActiveMQ - and that’s it - >> simple. Right now that’s hawtio. The old web console is frankly well beyond >> love - but I can understand from a money making point of view you wouldn’t >> want to have hawtio as an option of end users. Which is why moving it to a >> sub-project will allow you and your colleagues to work on it - you’ll >> probably get even more money from your customers - or you could just save >> the hard work - skin hawtio however you like (Johan’s Console) - and make a >> mint yay! >> >> What ever happens in the community, what ever console we use, if nobody >> uses hawtio ever again, if folks went bananas and started using other OS >> solutions - I and my “Fuse” (top 10 on [1]). colleagues get payed the >> same. We don’t have an interest in this for financial gain, let alone agree >> on what should happen - apart from the old web console is something we don’t >> want to work on - but when you’ve been fixing crappy bugs in for a while [1] >> - you may feel the same way. >> >> When you get a salary/bonus/shares regardless - it enables you to make >> decisions that’s best for the users - I don’t think that anyone else (your >> colleagues or partner companies) who want so desperately to keep the old >> console, have the same objectivity. >> >> >> Just so its all out there - hawtio is open source, is AS2 licence - and the >> community is diverse. More than one large company uses it directly in their >> products. Where hawtio lives, what direction it takes is entirely down to >> the hawtio community - my employer - Red Hat really doesn’t care - hawtio >> isn’t at the ASF for other reasons. >> >> >> [1] https://www.ohloh.net/p/activemq/contributors?query=&sort=commits >> >> >> On 30 Jan 2014, at 05:41, Johan Edstrom <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> A big -1 that is non binding. >>> >>> I'm tired of this shit, let us put it all on the table. >>> I probably made around 75k USD last year supporting and writing code around >>> AMQ. >>> If you count the other work I probably made closer to 300k USD, so yes I'm >>> really open. >>> >>> I'm working with or I am surrounded by the people that benefit from what >>> AMQ does. >>> >>> So I'll go on and list the rest of the people here - Just from the last >>> post. >>> >>> Dejan, +1 - RedHat >>> Hiram, +1 - RedHat >>> Rob +1 - RedHat, >>> Claus +1 RedHat, >>> >>> I could go on, I could also put their purchase history from Fuse to RedHat, >>> inspect AS Server Modules and SwitchYard. >>> Then I could ask if there was a monetary gain in Hawt (WTF?) is introduced >>> into >>> Jiras, emails, mailing lists or whatever the hell else? >>> >>> So - we have a PMC telling us that not using ASF code but rather RH code is >>> good >>> - since it is Secure, >>> - since it isn't the 90's >>> - since it is what the customer wants? >>> >>> Does anyone actually believe this load of shit? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 29, 2014, at 12:14 PM, Kevin Earls <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> +1 >>>> >>>> On Jan 29, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Dejan Bosanac <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> +1 >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> -- >>>>> Dejan Bosanac >>>>> ---------------------- >>>>> Red Hat, Inc. >>>>> FuseSource is now part of Red Hat >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Twitter: @dejanb >>>>> Blog: http://sensatic.net >>>>> ActiveMQ in Action: http://www.manning.com/snyder/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 9:01 AM, James Strachan >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> +1 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 28 January 2014 15:18, Hiram Chirino <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Since there seems to be general agreement that the web-console should >>>>>>> be moved to a sub-project, lets put it to a vote and make it official. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [ ] +1 Create the activemq-web-console sub-project with the associated >>>>>>> git, wiki, and jira spaces. >>>>>>> [ ] -1 Veto the making it a sub-project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Hiram Chirino >>>>>>> Engineering | Red Hat, Inc. >>>>>>> [email protected] | fusesource.com | redhat.com >>>>>>> skype: hiramchirino | twitter: @hiramchirino >>>>>>> blog: Hiram Chirino's Bit Mojo >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> James >>>>>> ------- >>>>>> Red Hat >>>>>> >>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>> Web: http://fusesource.com >>>>>> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews >>>>>> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Open Source Integration >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> Rob Davies >> ———————— >> Red Hat, Inc >> http://hawt.io - #dontcha >> Twitter: rajdavies >> Blog: http://rajdavies.blogspot.com >> ActiveMQ in Action: http://www.manning.com/snyder/ >> > > -- > Daniel Kulp > [email protected] - http://dankulp.com/blog > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com > Rob Davies ———————— Red Hat, Inc http://hawt.io - #dontcha Twitter: rajdavies Blog: http://rajdavies.blogspot.com ActiveMQ in Action: http://www.manning.com/snyder/
