I'm not a stakeholder here- I don't know Russell, I don't work for Datastax, and I'm not a member of the ASF.
For what little it's probably worth since I haven't "been elected to have a binding voice within the project", Russell's is exactly how I read the message from Chris Mattmann. Whether or not it was intended to be so aggressive and dismissive and patronizing, I almost can't even believe something that *might* be taken this way is tolerated in a board member's *public* communications. In the end, I *can* believe it, though, as it reinforces my perception of the Foundation in general. :( p On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Russell Bradberry <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote: > For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”. > I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me. Below I > will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged > me off list see it as well: > > “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to > the Board for the last three years based on merit …” > > Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit. > > “You see I actually understand…” > > The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack > against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand. > > “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …” > > Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that my > word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer. > > “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.” > > Again > > “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.” > > Again > > “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? > Please ask yourself that” > > This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough > to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job > in recognizing my efforts. > > “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of > the ASF which is home to the project”” > > This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the > ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as > well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded, > and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an > Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a > resume) > > “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the foundation > since 2011” > > More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure. > > Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit > me in order to demonstrate his merit. The rest of the email goes to defend > a point that I did not make. > > Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid. > Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and > ASF at risk. I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy > to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax. What I will > say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other > unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community. Most of this > is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris. Furthermore, as > Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well. This is > a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but > also be directly harmful. These issues can, and should, be resolved > amicably. > > Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of > any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache. > > > > On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <strub...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote: > > Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer. > He just tried to show how community development might look like if > done a bit more openly. > > Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again? > I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au > contraire! > > > txs and LieGrue, > strub > > > > > > > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry < > rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every > level in order > > to show your superiority of sorts. Let me set this straight, I am > not > > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how > things should > > be run. I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the > board or vilify > > you in any way. My complaint is that your rhetoric is > unprofessional; and as a > > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, > casting a bad > > light on the ASF. > > > > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize > them in any > > way; they are legitimate concerns. The way you are handling them is > what I am > > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping > divide the > > community. Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem. > If you cast > > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you > are then > > making the foundation look bad. > > > > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice. Everyone in > the community > > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at > all. I > > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted > off the > > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in > that regard. > > > > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing > more. > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattm...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > Hi Russ, > > > > Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when > it comes to > > protecting > > those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below > thread. You see > > I’ve been > > around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for > the last > > three years > > based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a > decade of the > > ASF. > > I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community > and fully > > intend > > for that to continue. My job is not to only care about > Cassandra. It’s to > > ensure that the > > ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see > I actually > > understand and > > have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the > ASF and its > > communities. > > I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know. > > > > You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that > > unfortunately you > > do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a > vote in the > > next Apache > > Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members > election. And > > *that* is > > the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted > against me on > > the ballot. > > If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you > or your > > contributions > > to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC > member, long > > ago, and > > heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member > where you > > could do > > more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you > would be able > > to vote with > > your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s > management > > committee > > understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even > consider your > > requests to have > > me vilified in front of the Board something that would > disqualify you for > > membership in > > the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, > even discussion > > threads, > > answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails > including this > > one – why haven’t > > you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? > Please ask > > yourself that. > > > > In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” > compared to a > > member of the > > ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the > people I’ve > > been privy and > > voted on granting membership to within the foundation since > 2011, go look at > > some of the > > functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with > vendor > > neutrality at the > > ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional > and character > > isn’t such > > to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait. > > > > If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory > Twitter > > discussion that I attempted > > to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here > at the ASF* > > and for a mail summarizing > > that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, > and > > for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments > regarding > > having > > geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if > it’s a > > hostile request to > > ask that all members of the community including those non > committers and/or > > PMC > > that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not > sure of even > > where the > > canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the > canonical > > lists for the project > > then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. > I will > > assert again based > > on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions > here and > > outside of the ASF, abuse > > of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the > collective WHOLE of > > those things that my initial > > request to bring the conversation on list - that was met with > the usual > > random drive by vitriol and my follow > > up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails > questioning > > whether or not an email > > should be moderated though - was warranted. > > > > I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go > and will > > continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as > Cassandra > > (and much > > much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to > drive the > > discussions to > > the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies > for my > > hostility. You will > > continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what > I signed up > > to do as an > > ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality, > > irrespective of whether > > or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and > discussion. > > > > Chris > > > > On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" > > <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it > through. Wow. > > Great > > job. > > - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk > shit > > instead > > of ... > > - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go > ahead, > > I'll wait. > > > > > > Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe > you lack the > > professionalism and character to be a board member of > anything, let > > alone > > representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. > > I've CC'd the > > rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally > complain about > > your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct > within this > > mailing list. > > > > This list, and community, are made up of individuals and > volunteers. I > > believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may > have been > > attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates > tension in an > > already > > tense community. I encourage others to chime in if I am > misreading > > here. I > > personally feel that someone acting in a leadership > capacity, such as a > > board member, should be held to a higher standard of > professionalism and > > conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board > member hat > > on > > or not. I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire > Apache board > > encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner. > > > > -Russ > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) < > > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > > > > > Mark Thomas got it done ✅ > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > s/sis/is > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Chris, > > > >> > > > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I > > filed: > > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> > > > >> -Jason > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann > > <mattm...@apache.org> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators. > > > >>> > > > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to > > be added. Did > > > you > > > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you > > haven't yet, no worries > > > I > > > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks. > > > >>> > > > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > >>>> Gary, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator > > component due to this > > > >>> thread; > > > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). > > Yes, I would like > > > to > > > >>> be > > > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket > > (as per > > > >>>> > > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), > > > >>> which > > > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -Jason > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek > > <gdusba...@gmail.com> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the > > only one with moderator privs. Any > > > >>> other > > > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and > > I've been traveling this week. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Gary. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann > > <mattm...@apache.org> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> Hi Folks, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to > > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to > > > >>> figure > > > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Cheers, > > > >>>>>> Chris > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >
