I agree with Paul. Same boat, not a PMC / Datastax, just someone that cares a lot about this community. On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:04 PM paul cannon <pcan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not a stakeholder here- I don't know Russell, I don't work for > Datastax, and I'm not a member of the ASF. > > For what little it's probably worth since I haven't "been elected to have a > binding voice within the project", Russell's is exactly how I read the > message from Chris Mattmann. Whether or not it was intended to be so > aggressive and dismissive and patronizing, I almost can't even believe > something that *might* be taken this way is tolerated in a board member's > *public* communications. > > In the end, I *can* believe it, though, as it reinforces my perception of > the Foundation in general. :( > > p > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Russell Bradberry <rbradbe...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”. > > I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me. Below I > > will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have > messaged > > me off list see it as well: > > > > “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to > > the Board for the last three years based on merit …” > > > > Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit. > > > > “You see I actually understand…” > > > > The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack > > against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand. > > > > “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …” > > > > Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that > my > > word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer. > > > > “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.” > > > > Again > > > > “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.” > > > > Again > > > > “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? > > Please ask yourself that” > > > > This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough > > to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job > > in recognizing my efforts. > > > > “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of > > the ASF which is home to the project”” > > > > This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the > > ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than > as > > well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was > awarded, > > and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an > > Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a > > resume) > > > > “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the > foundation > > since 2011” > > > > More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure. > > > > Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit > > me in order to demonstrate his merit. The rest of the email goes to > defend > > a point that I did not make. > > > > Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid. > > Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project > and > > ASF at risk. I am not an authority on the subject and have not been > privy > > to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax. What I > will > > say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other > > unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community. Most of this > > is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris. Furthermore, as > > Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well. This > is > > a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but > > also be directly harmful. These issues can, and should, be resolved > > amicably. > > > > Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of > > any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache. > > > > > > > > On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <strub...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote: > > > > Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer. > > He just tried to show how community development might look like if > > done a bit more openly. > > > > Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again? > > I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au > > contraire! > > > > > > txs and LieGrue, > > strub > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry < > > rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every > > level in order > > > to show your superiority of sorts. Let me set this straight, I am > > not > > > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how > > things should > > > be run. I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the > > board or vilify > > > you in any way. My complaint is that your rhetoric is > > unprofessional; and as a > > > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, > > casting a bad > > > light on the ASF. > > > > > > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to > minimize > > them in any > > > way; they are legitimate concerns. The way you are handling them > is > > what I am > > > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping > > divide the > > > community. Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem. > > If you cast > > > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you > > are then > > > making the foundation look bad. > > > > > > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice. Everyone in > > the community > > > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at > > all. I > > > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted > > off the > > > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in > > that regard. > > > > > > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing > > more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattm...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Russ, > > > > > > Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when > > it comes to > > > protecting > > > those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below > > thread. You see > > > I’ve been > > > around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board > for > > the last > > > three years > > > based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a > > decade of the > > > ASF. > > > I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this > community > > and fully > > > intend > > > for that to continue. My job is not to only care about > > Cassandra. It’s to > > > ensure that the > > > ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see > > I actually > > > understand and > > > have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the > > ASF and its > > > communities. > > > I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know. > > > > > > You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is > that > > > unfortunately you > > > do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a > > vote in the > > > next Apache > > > Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members > > election. And > > > *that* is > > > the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted > > against me on > > > the ballot. > > > If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you > > or your > > > contributions > > > to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC > > member, long > > > ago, and > > > heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member > > where you > > > could do > > > more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you > > would be able > > > to vote with > > > your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s > > management > > > committee > > > understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even > > consider your > > > requests to have > > > me vilified in front of the Board something that would > > disqualify you for > > > membership in > > > the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, > > even discussion > > > threads, > > > answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails > > including this > > > one – why haven’t > > > you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? > > Please ask > > > yourself that. > > > > > > In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” > > compared to a > > > member of the > > > ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all > the > > people I’ve > > > been privy and > > > voted on granting membership to within the foundation since > > 2011, go look at > > > some of the > > > functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with > > vendor > > > neutrality at the > > > ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional > > and character > > > isn’t such > > > to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait. > > > > > > If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially > inflammatory > > Twitter > > > discussion that I attempted > > > to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here > > at the ASF* > > > and for a mail summarizing > > > that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 > hours, > > and > > > for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments > > regarding > > > having > > > geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and > if > > it’s a > > > hostile request to > > > ask that all members of the community including those non > > committers and/or > > > PMC > > > that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not > > sure of even > > > where the > > > canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on > the > > canonical > > > lists for the project > > > then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. > > I will > > > assert again based > > > on my reading of the facts including archives, code, > discussions > > here and > > > outside of the ASF, abuse > > > of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the > > collective WHOLE of > > > those things that my initial > > > request to bring the conversation on list - that was met with > > the usual > > > random drive by vitriol and my follow > > > up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 > emails > > questioning > > > whether or not an email > > > should be moderated though - was warranted. > > > > > > I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and > go > > and will > > > continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest > as > > Cassandra > > > (and much > > > much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to > > drive the > > > discussions to > > > the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies > > for my > > > hostility. You will > > > continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and > what > > I signed up > > > to do as an > > > ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor > neutrality, > > > irrespective of whether > > > or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and > > discussion. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" > > > <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it > > through. Wow. > > > Great > > > job. > > > - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to > talk > > shit > > > instead > > > of ... > > > - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go > > ahead, > > > I'll wait. > > > > > > > > > Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe > > you lack the > > > professionalism and character to be a board member of > > anything, let > > > alone > > > representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's > ideals. > > > I've CC'd the > > > rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally > > complain about > > > your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct > > within this > > > mailing list. > > > > > > This list, and community, are made up of individuals and > > volunteers. I > > > believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may > > have been > > > attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates > > tension in an > > > already > > > tense community. I encourage others to chime in if I am > > misreading > > > here. I > > > personally feel that someone acting in a leadership > > capacity, such as a > > > board member, should be held to a higher standard of > > professionalism and > > > conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board > > member hat > > > on > > > or not. I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire > > Apache board > > > encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner. > > > > > > -Russ > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) < > > > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > Mark Thomas got it done ✅ > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown > > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > s/sis/is > > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown > > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Chris, > > > > >> > > > > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the > ticket I > > > filed: > > > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858. > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > >> > > > > >> -Jason > > > > >> > > > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann > > > <mattm...@apache.org> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like > to > > > be added. Did > > > > you > > > > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you > > > haven't yet, no worries > > > > I > > > > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks. > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown > > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > >>>> Gary, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator > > > component due to this > > > > >>> thread; > > > > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). > > > Yes, I would like > > > > to > > > > >>> be > > > > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket > > > (as per > > > > >>>> > > > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators > ), > > > > >>> which > > > > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> -Jason > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek > > > <gdusba...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the > > > only one with moderator privs. Any > > > > >>> other > > > > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested? > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and > > > I've been traveling this week. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Gary. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann > > > <mattm...@apache.org> > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Hi Folks, > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to > > > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to > > > > >>> figure > > > > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up? > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Cheers, > > > > >>>>>> Chris > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
