Sorry one typo below:
Where I said:
“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders
becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of
the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”
I meant to say:
“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community
leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of
the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”
Thanks.
Cheers,
Chris
On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I meant
is not
correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you
know what I am
thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the
PMC wasn’t doing its job,
because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community
members of
Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to
point out that
you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying
to point out
that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project as
I believe you
have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC
which in Tika,
Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the
ability to have a
direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a
single vendor who
has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache),
but by demonstration
has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache part
of the equation.
That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of
events
happened:
1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on
engaging
the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the past
6
months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF
member that
Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously)
was asking
questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could
be much better
understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
Cassandra. I suggested
on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her
which email address
to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the thread
were people
who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as they
could have
done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
Cassandra PMC or not.
3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had
continued with several
ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked
Kelly why talk
there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home
for Apache Cassandra?
She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in
moderation) and yes it
was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
conversation that was heated
on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good intentions
but I felt we were
wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through –
which to me was
a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real
answer was that the Apache
Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly
going back and forth
with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more
moderators now. I’m not sure
the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s
definitely something the PMC should
check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
responsibility.
In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either of
these words at anyone in particular.
I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to
time. Sorry.
The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities
of the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.
Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me and
nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in
mediums besides email or electronically.
Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I
realize many of the people here for Apache
Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please realize
I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my words.
That can lead to frustration and to other
emotions.
Thanks for listening.
Cheers,
Chris
On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look
bad”. I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me. Below
I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged me
off list see it as well:
“… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to
the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
“You see I actually understand…”
The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack
against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
“…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that
my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
“You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
Again
“You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
Again
“why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the
project? Please ask yourself that”
This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done
enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their
job in recognizing my efforts.
“please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member
of the ASF which is home to the project””
This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of
the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as
well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded, and
I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an Apache
standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a resume)
“I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the
foundation since 2011”
More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to
discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit. The rest of the email goes to
defend a point that I did not make.
Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.
Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and ASF
at risk. I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy to the
private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax. What I will say, is
that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other unprofessional conduct
has caused a rift in this community. Most of this is coming directly from the
board, specifically Chris. Furthermore, as Aleksey has pointed out, this
occurs in the private lists as well. This is a form of toxic-leadership and is
proven to not only be ineffective, but also be directly harmful. These issues
can, and should, be resolved amicably.
Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of
any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <strub...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote:
Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
He just tried to show how community development might look like if
done a bit more openly.
Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it
again?
I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au
contraire!
txs and LieGrue,
strub
> On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry
<rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at
every level in order
> to show your superiority of sorts. Let me set this straight, I
am not
> attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know
how things should
> be run. I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the
board or vilify
> you in any way. My complaint is that your rhetoric is
unprofessional; and as a
> representative of the board the language you use is, plainly,
casting a bad
> light on the ASF.
>
> I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to
minimize them in any
> way; they are legitimate concerns. The way you are handling them
is what I am
> concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping
divide the
> community. Being the “villain” as you say is what is the
problem. If you cast
> yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you
are then
> making the foundation look bad.
>
> Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice. Everyone
in the community
> does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community
at all. I
> wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be
voted off the
> board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in
that regard.
>
> All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy,
nothing more.
>
>
>
>
> On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Russ,
>
> Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain
when it comes to
> protecting
> those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below
thread. You see
> I’ve been
> around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board
for the last
> three years
> based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a
decade of the
> ASF.
> I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this
community and fully
> intend
> for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
Cassandra. It’s to
> ensure that the
> ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You
see I actually
> understand and
> have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of
the ASF and its
> communities.
> I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>
> You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is
that
> unfortunately you
> do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have
a vote in the
> next Apache
> Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members
election. And
> *that* is
> the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted
against me on
> the ballot.
> If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about
you or your
> contributions
> to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC
member, long
> ago, and
> heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member
where you
> could do
> more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you
would be able
> to vote with
> your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s
management
> committee
> understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even
consider your
> requests to have
> me vilified in front of the Board something that would
disqualify you for
> membership in
> the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions,
even discussion
> threads,
> answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails
including this
> one – why haven’t
> you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
Please ask
> yourself that.
>
> In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP”
compared to a
> member of the
> ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all
the people I’ve
> been privy and
> voted on granting membership to within the foundation since
2011, go look at
> some of the
> functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem
with vendor
> neutrality at the
> ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional
and character
> isn’t such
> to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>
> If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially
inflammatory Twitter
> discussion that I attempted
> to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion
here at the ASF*
> and for a mail summarizing
> that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12
hours, and
> for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its
commitments regarding
> having
> geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and
if it’s a
> hostile request to
> ask that all members of the community including those non
committers and/or
> PMC
> that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are
not sure of even
> where the
> canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on
the canonical
> lists for the project
> then there is something fundamentally wrong with the
community. I will
> assert again based
> on my reading of the facts including archives, code,
discussions here and
> outside of the ASF, abuse
> of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the
collective WHOLE of
> those things that my initial
> request to bring the conversation on list - that was met
with the usual
> random drive by vitriol and my follow
> up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3
emails questioning
> whether or not an email
> should be moderated though - was warranted.
>
> I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and
go and will
> continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest
as Cassandra
> (and much
> much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to
drive the
> discussions to
> the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my
apologies for my
> hostility. You will
> continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and
what I signed up
> to do as an
> ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor
neutrality,
> irrespective of whether
> or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
discussion.
>
> Chris
>
> On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
> <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it
through. Wow.
> Great
> job.
> - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to
talk shit
> instead
> of ...
> - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go
ahead,
> I'll wait.
>
>
> Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I
believe you lack the
> professionalism and character to be a board member of
anything, let
> alone
> representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's
ideals.
> I've CC'd the
> rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally
complain about
> your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct
within this
> mailing list.
>
> This list, and community, are made up of individuals and
volunteers. I
> believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may
have been
> attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates
tension in an
> already
> tense community. I encourage others to chime in if I am
misreading
> here. I
> personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
capacity, such as a
> board member, should be held to a higher standard of
professionalism and
> conduct when doing business; whether it is with their
board member hat
> on
> or not. I would hate for it to be assumed that the
entire Apache board
> encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>
> -Russ
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
> <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > s/sis/is
> > >
> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
> <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Chris,
> > >>
> > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the
ticket I
> filed:
> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> -Jason
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
> <mattm...@apache.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> > >>>
> > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like
to
> be added. Did
> > you
> > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
> haven't yet, no worries
> > I
> > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
> <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>> Gary,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
> component due to this
> > >>> thread;
> > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
> Yes, I would like
> > to
> > >>> be
> > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
> (as per
> > >>>>
>
https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> > >>> which
> > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Jason
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
> <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
> only one with moderator privs. Any
> > >>> other
> > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
> I've been traveling this week.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Gary.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
> <mattm...@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
> dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > >>> figure
> > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
