sounds good, so if we put both sections together the worry is over. acs is a complex system and requires a lot of reading so let''s not put it in a different section. would be duplicate code anyhow.
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:56 PM, Chiradeep Vittal <chirade...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, you have to define "worry" :) > > I'm proposing an almost identical step to > > http://docs.cloudstack.apache.org/projects/cloudstack-installation/en/4.6/management-server/#prepare-the-system-vm-template > > If they can do that, then it is not a stretch to assume they can download > the default template in a similar manner. The > "cloud-install-default-template" (proposed) script can do the mirror > checking etc. > > > > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Will Stevens <wstev...@cloudops.com> > wrote: > > > I definitely agree with this. I don't think people doing a PoC should > have > > to worry about getting a template installed on first setup. I think that > > is a basic feature if we want platform adoption. Getting the first boot > > process from download to first VM launched should be as smooth as > possible. > > > > *Will STEVENS* > > Lead Developer > > > > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts > > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 > > w cloudops.com *|* tw @CloudOps_ > > > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Daan Hoogland <daan.hoogl...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Chiradeep, > > > > > > It makes sense not to have this old default very insecure guest > template > > > still be downloaded but it would be nice to have some kind of meta-data > > > pointing to the latest version of an acceptable template (symlink) for > > > trial installs so PoCcers are swiftly on their way. Would you agree? > > > > > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Chiradeep Vittal < > chirade...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Pierre, > > > > I meant the auto-download of default templates, not systemvm. > > > > Note that the initial systemvm template has to be hand-downloaded > > anyway. > > > > If you are a single hypervisor cloud, then that is all that is > needed. > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Pierre-Luc Dion < > pd...@cloudops.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I would be -1 about disabling the autodownload of the systemvm > > > template, > > > > > has this should be simplify deployment of a cloudstack system. > > > > > although, the download URL should be a configurable value, maybe > in a > > > > > property file or thru the API somehow or via a pre-install command. > > > > > > > > > > I really like download.cloudstack.org + mirror. I'm looking at > > > getting > > > > > the > > > > > DNS entry: builds.cloudstack.org for the new Jenkins and I got no > > > > > objections on using the cloudstack.org domain for community > services > > > so > > > > > I'm > > > > > pretty sure we would be ok to use download.cloudstack.org, where > > would > > > > we > > > > > setting this up? on the current webserver of our website? could we > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > PL > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Giles Sirett < > > > > giles.sir...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Erik > > > > > > I agree on the existing users - not the end of the world. We > could > > > even > > > > > > release a tiny patch to update the DB records > > > > > > > > > > > > The piece that we need to be really careful with is the "I've > just > > > > > > downloaded cloudstack thing for the first time" scenario > > > > > > > > > > > > But - there seems to be plenty of good ideas flowing on that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > Giles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > giles.sir...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > www.shapeblue.com > > > > > > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK > > > > > > @shapeblue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Erik Weber [mailto:terbol...@gmail.com] > > > > > > Sent: 19 May 2016 09:32 > > > > > > To: dev <dev@cloudstack.apache.org> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Migrating CloudStack content from > download.cloud.com > > > > > > > > > > > > As a user (with old ACS installations) I'd say that this isn't > all > > > that > > > > > > troublesome, this is easily fixed by updating the appropriate db > > > > records. > > > > > > > > > > > > We should ensure that we have some good posts discovered by > Google > > > and > > > > > > other search engines, so that when somebody running old > > installations > > > > hit > > > > > > this issue they find the workaround. > > > > > > There's a lot of time to reach out to users and inform of the fix > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Erik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Giles Sirett < > > > > > giles.sir...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a MAJOR problem and needs to be figured out before the > > > > current > > > > > > > download site is removed - @Raja - have Citrix committed to it > > > being > > > > > > there > > > > > > > another year ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that Cloudstack relies on this download > at > > > > > initial > > > > > > > build/startup and then periodically if people do things like > > build > > > a > > > > > new > > > > > > > zone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, users environments aren't going to stop if its pulled, but > > > nobody > > > > > > > would be a able to build/install cloudstack and it may cause > > issues > > > > as > > > > > > and > > > > > > > when users make config changes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, for new builds, its hard coded : you start the > > Sec > > > > > > > Storage VM, CloudStack will try to download the built in > template > > > > from > > > > > > > download.cloud.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that its simple db change to make once an > > > > > > environment > > > > > > > is running (exisiting users) but *may* require a code patch to > > fix > > > > the > > > > > > > initial install > > > > > > > > > > > > > > #notideal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, this should be maintained by ASF/ the project as its > key > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > software working, however my understanding is it involves > > binaries > > > > > which > > > > > > > ASF is never keen on (and may be some 3rd party binaries) - so > > that > > > > > just > > > > > > > wont happen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apt-get is controlled by Wido et al (for which we all owe him a > > > > massive > > > > > > > thanks) - but you are right, it is a 3rd party dependency and > > > > > arguably a > > > > > > > SPOF. But, if ASF wont host binaries, we're always going to > have > > > > this > > > > > > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, we could patch the code to point somewhere else - but where > > ? - > > > > by > > > > > > > definition its got to be something maintained by a 3rd party > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We had this debate some time ago when talking about the > > > repositories. > > > > > We > > > > > > > (ShapeBlue) maintain a repo for our customers, which wev'e > always > > > > > opened > > > > > > up > > > > > > > as public. However, there were concerns about having a company > > > domain > > > > > > name > > > > > > > (which I understand) - so apt-get became our preferred repo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts on how to fix this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. if ASF would allow us to create the host entry > > > > > > download.cloudstack.org. > > > > > > > Its under their domain, but with the site being with a 3rd > party > > it > > > > > could > > > > > > > be allowed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. maybe Citrix could commit to pointing the current DNS entry > > to a > > > > new > > > > > > > location (would be simplest but may be legally complex and > relies > > > on > > > > > > > ongoing goodwill) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. make a mod to allow users to choose the download location on > > > > > install. > > > > > > > We can then maintain apt-get. To remove the SPOF, we could then > > get > > > > the > > > > > > > templates copied to a number of 3rd party locations and allow > > > people > > > > to > > > > > > > choose which one they use > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > > Giles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > giles.sir...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > > www.shapeblue.com > > > > > > > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK > > > > > > > @shapeblue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: williamstev...@gmail.com [mailto: > williamstev...@gmail.com] > > > On > > > > > > > Behalf Of Will Stevens > > > > > > > Sent: 16 May 2016 18:59 > > > > > > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > > > Cc: Wido den Hollander <w...@widodh.nl> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Migrating CloudStack content from > > download.cloud.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Ian, yes, but I think there is more to it than that. We can > > > change > > > > it > > > > > > > going forward and we can move everything from there over to a > new > > > > > domain. > > > > > > > I believe the problem is with all of the existing ACS or CCP > > > installs > > > > > out > > > > > > > there currently pointing at the download.cloud.com URL, so > when > > it > > > > > goes > > > > > > > down, those installs have to be updated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I don't understand exactly, but that is the impression I > am > > > > > getting > > > > > > > from this thread. Can this be confirmed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Will STEVENS* > > > > > > > Lead Developer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts > > > > > > > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com > > *|* > > > > tw > > > > > > > @CloudOps_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Ian Rae <i...@cloudops.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey guys, who controls apt-get.eu and given the (rather > > > > concerning) > > > > > > > > level of dependency on the operation of the > download.cloud.com > > - > > > > > would > > > > > > > > it not make sense to use a domain that is under the control > of > > > > party > > > > > > > > whose alignment with CloudStack will not shift. I hesitate to > > > > > > > > implicate the red tape of Apache Foundation, but perhaps the > > > fabled > > > > > > > > CloudStack alliance organization would be a good way to > handle > > > this > > > > > > > > long term. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Raja Pullela > > > > > > > > <raja.pull...@accelerite.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Paul, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > trust me, it won’t be go away overnight. We are talking to > > > > Citrix > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > requested them to keep it active for another year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once we have the content copied over (I will work with Wido > > and > > > > > > > > > verify > > > > > > > > this) to cloudstack.apt-get.eu and update the documentation > > > (user > > > > > > > > guides update and create a wiki to show how an existing > > > > installation > > > > > > > > can fixed to point to new URLs) we don’t have a dependency > on “ > > > > > > > download.cloud.com” – > > > > > > > > right? sorry, if I am missing something here? Please let > me > > > > know, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > best, > > > > > > > > > Raja > > > > > > > > > Senior Manager, Product Development > > > > > > > > > Accelerite, > > > > > > > > > 2055, Laurelwood Road, Santa Clara, CA 95054, USA > > > > > > > > > Phone: 1-408-216-7010, www.accelerite.com, @accelerite > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/16/16, 9:38 PM, "Paul Angus" < > paul.an...@shapeblue.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >>Thanks Raja, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>May I humbly suggest that someone at Accelerite speaks to > > > Citrix > > > > > > > > >>about > > > > > > > > how long the content will remain on download.cloud.com? > > > > > > > > >>Simply losing the content on download.cloud.com overnight > > will > > > > > make > > > > > > > > everyone look bad > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>Kind regards, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>Paul Angus > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>paul.an...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > >>www.shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > >>53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK > > @shapeblue > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > >>From: Raja Pullela [mailto:raja.pull...@accelerite.com] > > > > > > > > >>Sent: 16 May 2016 16:44 > > > > > > > > >>To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > > > > >>Subject: Re: Migrating CloudStack content from > > > > download.cloud.com > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>Paul, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>Yes, you are right, this change impacts both CloudStack and > > > > > > > > CloudPlatform customers. Not sure, if I understand you > > > correctly, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > move away from “download.cloud.com” is permanent. I don’t > > know > > > > how > > > > > > > > long the content on download.cloud.com will be up/available. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>Based on Wido’s availability, we can get rest of the > content > > to > > > > > > > > cloudstack.apt-get.eu, hopefully, by this week ? BTW, the > > > > content > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > download.cloud.com is left as is and will stay as is until > > > Citrix > > > > > > > > decides on what to do with it. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>Best, > > > > > > > > >>Raja > > > > > > > > >>Senior Manager, Product Development > > > > > > > > >>Accelerite, > > > > > > > > >>2055, Laurelwood Road, Santa Clara, CA 95054, USA > > > > > > > > >>Phone: 1-408-216-7010, www.accelerite.com, @accelerite > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>On 5/16/16, 6:36 PM, "Paul Angus" < > paul.an...@shapeblue.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>>Raja, > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>As this effects every copy of CloudStack and CloudPlatform > > > there > > > > > > > > >>>ever > > > > > > > > was. Please may I ask how long we have to manage a migration > > > away > > > > > > > > from download.cloud.com? > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Kind regards, > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Paul Angus > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Regards, > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Paul Angus > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>paul.an...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > >>>www.shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > >>>53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK > > @shapeblue > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>-----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > >>>From: Raja Pullela [mailto:raja.pull...@accelerite.com] > > > > > > > > >>>Sent: 16 May 2016 13:53 > > > > > > > > >>>To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > > > > >>>Subject: Re: Migrating CloudStack content from > > > > download.cloud.com > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Hi Paul, > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Thank you for the additional file details and I will > request > > > > wido > > > > > > > > >>>to > > > > > > > > copy these as well. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>BTW, I agree with you there is every copy of CloudStack > out > > > > there > > > > > > > > >>>and > > > > > > > > reason why I have requested Wido to download all the old > files > > as > > > > > well. > > > > > > > > Looks like we missed few and get these uploaded as well. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Please note that Citrix owns the “download.cloud.com” > > address > > > > and > > > > > > > > >>>we > > > > > > > > have to get all the CloudStack related content from there. > > Once > > > we > > > > > > > > confirm on the content move Citrix may choose to remove the > > > content > > > > > > > > from the location. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>That said, I will get in touch with Wido again and do a > > > complete > > > > > > > > >>>copy > > > > > > > > such that we have everything. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>Best, > > > > > > > > >>>Raja > > > > > > > > >>>Senior Manager, Product Development Accelerite, 2055, > > > Laurelwood > > > > > > > > >>>Road, Santa Clara, CA 95054, USA > > > > > > > > >>>Phone: 1-408-216-7010, www.accelerite.com, @accelerite > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>On 5/14/16, 7:12 AM, "Paul Angus" < > paul.an...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>Raja, > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>I've just picked up on this. > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>There are a number of URLs which are hardcoded into the > > > > > CloudStack > > > > > > > > database for the small built-in templates. These are in just > > > about > > > > > > > > every copy of CloudStack out there. > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > http://download.cloud.com/templates/builtin/f59f18fb-ae94-4f97-afd > > > > > > > > >>>>2-f8 > > > > > > > > >>>>4 > > > > > > > > >>>>755767aca.vhd.bz2 > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > http://download.cloud.com/releases/2.2.0/eec2209b-9875-3c8d-92be-c > > > > > > > > >>>>001b > > > > > > > > >>>>d > > > > > > > > >>>>8a0faf.qcow2.bz2 > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > http://download.cloud.com/templates/builtin/centos56-x86_64.vhd.bz > > > > > > > > >>>>2 > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > http://download.cloud.com/releases/4.3/centos6_4_64bit.vhd.bz2 > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > http://download.cloud.com/releases/2.2.0/CentOS5.3-x86_64.ova > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > http://download.cloud.com/templates/builtin/centos-7-x86_64.tar.gz > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>These will need copying and the CloudStack code updating > to > > > the > > > > > > > > >>>>new > > > > > > > > location. > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>I don't think that you can deprecate download.cloud.com > or > > > > it's > > > > > > > > contents for some time, without causing a lot of issues for > > > users. > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Hi, > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Short Term - all the content has moved to > > > > cloudstack.apt-get.eu > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Which sections to be modified? > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>The Install Guide needs to be modified. Sample > > links/details > > > > are > > > > > > > > >>>>mentioned below for 4.6 and same needs to be updated for > > > other > > > > > > > > >>>>Released versions of Cloudstack documentation: > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > http://docs.cloudstack.apache.org/projects/cloudstack-installation > > > > > > > > >>>>/en/ > > > > > > > > >>>>4 .6/management-server/#downloading-vhd-util > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Section - Downloading vhd-util¶ > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>What to do modified ? > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>modify URL from > > > > > > > > >>>> > http://download.cloud.com.s3.amazonaws.com/tools/vhd-util > > to > > > > > > > > >>>>http://cloudstack.apt-get.eu/tools/vhd-util > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>@Rajsekhar can you please update the sections ? > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Thanks > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Raja > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Senior Manager, Product Development > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Accelerite, > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>2055, Laurelwood Road, Santa Clara, CA 95054, USA > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Phone: 1-408-216-7010, www.accelerite.com, @accelerite > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Kind regards, > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Paul Angus > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Regards, > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>Paul Angus > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>paul.an...@shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > >>>>www.shapeblue.com > > > > > > > > >>>>53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK > > > @shapeblue > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>DISCLAIMER > > > > > > > > >>>========== > > > > > > > > >>>This e-mail may contain privileged and confidential > > > information > > > > > > > > >>>which > > > > > > > > is the property of Accelerite, a Persistent Systems business. > > It > > > is > > > > > > > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity to > which > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not > > > > > > > > authorized to read, retain, copy, print, distribute or use > this > > > > > > > > message. If you have received this communication in error, > > please > > > > > > > > notify the sender and delete all copies of this message. > > > > Accelerite, > > > > > a > > > > > > > > Persistent Systems business does not accept any liability for > > > virus > > > > > > > infected mails. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>DISCLAIMER > > > > > > > > >>========== > > > > > > > > >>This e-mail may contain privileged and confidential > > information > > > > > > > > >>which is > > > > > > > > the property of Accelerite, a Persistent Systems business. It > > is > > > > > > > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity to > which > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not > > > > > > > > authorized to read, retain, copy, print, distribute or use > this > > > > > > > > message. If you have received this communication in error, > > please > > > > > > > > notify the sender and delete all copies of this message. > > > > Accelerite, > > > > > a > > > > > > > > Persistent Systems business does not accept any liability for > > > virus > > > > > > > infected mails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > This e-mail may contain privileged and confidential > > information > > > > > > > > > which is > > > > > > > > the property of Accelerite, a Persistent Systems business. It > > is > > > > > > > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity to > which > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not > > > > > > > > authorized to read, retain, copy, print, distribute or use > this > > > > > > > > message. If you have received this communication in error, > > please > > > > > > > > notify the sender and delete all copies of this message. > > > > Accelerite, > > > > > a > > > > > > > > Persistent Systems business does not accept any liability for > > > virus > > > > > > > infected mails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Ian Rae > > > > > > > > CEO | PDG > > > > > > > > c: 514.944.4008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CloudOps | Cloud Infrastructure and Networking Solutions > > > > > > > > www.cloudops.com | 420 rue Guy | Montreal | Canada | H3J 1S6 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Daan > > > > > > -- Daan
