As a member of the Cassandra community I did not appreciate internal project matters being brought to a public mailing list without prior consent. This does not help re-establishing trust of the project with ASF leadership to work on common projects. Please start a new thread with priv...@cassandra.apache.org if you would like to continue this discussion.
Going back to the main topic of the working group, I do not think badges should exist for ASF members, committers or PMCs for two reasons: 1) This will create confusion with ASF roles. 2) Badges should celebrate achievements and not roles. I'm OK with an Advisor badge if they are associated with a concrete achievement, and not to indicate a role. On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 6:27 PM Paulo Motta <pa...@apache.org> wrote: > Hi Jarek, > > You raised interesting discussion points but I would prefer not to discuss > specific examples in a public mailing list, since they may spark > unnecessary controversy and derail from the focus of the working group. > > Do you mind summarizing your key considerations without mentioning > specific projects or vendors ? > > Thanks! > > Paulo > On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 10:35 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > >> I like the idea of having "A" badging system that is seen as "ASF >> accepted" that any PMC (at PMC level) or any person (at ASF level) >> might opt-in to use >> >> I think such badging system - providing that it's "ASF generally >> accepted" concept that is defined well - possibly adopted from others >> like Fedora has this nice property that it will potentially disarm >> attempts by the vendors to define their own "badging system" that >> might have some properties that are unwanted by the ASF. >> >> Without judging the intentions - we had this drama about Cassandra MVP >> - which was no more, no less - Cassandra driven badging system that >> they defined and PMC wanted to adopt it. IMHO this is what it really >> was about. Putting a "label" on people following some process and >> conditions, so that those people (and the community) can attach some >> value to. That's what the badging system is, and that's what the MVP >> program of Cassandra essentially was. >> >> Again - absolutely without judging the intentions that happened in >> Cassandra's case. If we had our own "ASF recognised" badging system, >> we could very easily funnel any kind of attempts to do similar badging >> program into "Here is the badging system we use in ASF - take this one >> and use it, maybe adapt it a bit - within the limits it provides and >> you are done". If any stakeholder wants to run their own program - >> (say Datastax MVP program for Cassandra) -they can still do it, no >> problem. >> >> But if the PMC wants to do something like that, using something that >> is not only recognised in ASF but also potentially can bring some. >> synergies (ASF level badges on top of PMC-level ones for example). >> >> There are really interesting synergies possible. For example - one >> could come up with an "ASF Advisor" badge as a way to recognise people >> who take part in the other comdev working group initiative - Advisors. >> Or even plain and simple "ASF member" badge. Having a few badges on >> the ASF level mixed with those on PMC level in a single place >> (providing that PMC will start using their own labels) might also be a >> way how to bring the PMCs closer to the ASF on more-or-less daily >> interactions. >> >> I imagine for example a new contributor asking such a question: "Hey I >> see on top of being the '<MY_PMC> mentor' label, you have the 'ASF >> Advisor' and 'ASF member' - can you explain what it means?" - If such >> labels would be visible, and promoted by the PMC in their >> communication, newsletters, it would be a great opportunity to "bind" >> the ASF community together. >> >> Of course it won't happen overnight, but starting with "choosing" the >> right badging system and making it easy for PMCs and persons to opt in >> is absolutely necessary to try it out. >> >> J. >> >> On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 2:35 PM Andrew Wetmore <cottag...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > Can I have the 'not badging' badge? >> > >> > On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 9:16 AM Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > > Here is a hopefully entertaining story about gaming a system: >> > > >> > > A long time ago (not in a galaxy far away), I worked for a company >> that >> > > created an internal $ bug bounty as a major release of our flagship >> product >> > > neared. Someone in QA found a bug that caused the language runtime to >> > > incorrectly print to the console integers. That person created one >> ticket >> > > for each of the numbers affected, 1, 2 and so forth until it >> obviously all >> > > went very sideways for that person. Fun! >> > > >> > > Gary >> > > >> > > On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 7:17 AM Paulo Motta <pa...@apache.org> wrote: >> > > >> > > > Apologies if the previous message sounded snarky - it was late and I >> > > > impulsively cherry-picked some excerpts to comment without much >> second >> > > > thought. :-) >> > > > >> > > > A more constructive attempt: >> > > > >> > > > 1. I like the principles of the Fedora badging program presented by >> Rich, >> > > > and I think we should adopt them verbatim if they are openly >> licensed. >> > > > 2. I think the "gamification" concern of Gary is actually a feature >> and >> > > not >> > > > a bug - I think the goal of a badging program is to motivate people >> to >> > > > contribute more to get more badges. If someone abuses the system to >> get >> > > > badges without deserving them, then this is a problem that should be >> > > > addressed if/when it arises. >> > > > 3. Sebb does not see a point in badges and I also am not interested >> in >> > > > earning them, but there are many people that do and this could be a >> good >> > > > way to encourage contributions. To me, the target audiences of this >> > > program >> > > > are primarily new contributors who are not yet committers, and >> > > secondarily >> > > > seasoned contributors who like to earn or display badges. People >> who care >> > > > less about badges don't need to receive them by just not signing up >> to >> > > the >> > > > badging system as Rich said. >> > > > 4. It looks like Rich has addressed Gary's privacy consideration >> but we >> > > can >> > > > submit the proposal to ASF Privacy before being implemented for >> > > additional >> > > > review. >> > > > 5. I still think projects should opt-in for project-specific badges >> (ie. >> > > > code contributions at project X). If the program is successful, >> projects >> > > > will want to adopt it. >> > > > >> > > > > We should also have a simple way for people to propose new >> badges. Spot >> > > > noted that the bottleneck with Fedora Badges has always been the >> design >> > > of >> > > > the badge, not the lack of ideas. >> > > > >> > > > I agree but I think this may distract the initial implementation of >> the >> > > > program. I think we should focus on one or a handful of carefully >> thought >> > > > badges to start, and if they're proven effective then we could >> create a >> > > > process to onboard new badges in the next iteration of the program. >> > > > >> > > > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:21 PM Paulo Motta <pa...@apache.org> >> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Nice discussion! A few comments: >> > > > > >> > > > > > I do not think that we need projects to opt in to this. Badges >> are >> > > not >> > > > > aimed at projects. They are aimed at *people*. >> > > > > >> > > > > Disagree. Projects should have the autonomy to decide if they >> want to >> > > > > adopt the ASF badging system for their contributions. I do not >> see why >> > > a >> > > > > project would opt-out, but if they want to they should have this >> > > > > prerrogative. >> > > > > >> > > > > > I am worried about gamification and a flood of PRs just to get >> > > badges. >> > > > > >> > > > > What’s the worry? A flood of PRs seems like a good thing for >> projects >> > > > > needing contributions. 😊 >> > > > > >> > > > > > Some people may not want badges; they should not be forced to >> have >> > > them >> > > > > if they happen to meet the criteria. >> > > > > >> > > > > Badges need to be accepted by the awardee before being emitted. >> > > > > >> > > > > > Personally, I do not see the point of them. >> > > > > >> > > > > You are probably not the target audience for badges if you are a >> > > seasoned >> > > > > contributor. >> > > > > >> > > > > > I wonder if there are there any privacy issue we should be able >> to >> > > > > foresee? >> > > > > >> > > > > priv...@apache.org should determine if the privacy policy of the >> > > chosen >> > > > > badging provider is acceptable, Badging WG members should not >> worry >> > > about >> > > > > this. >> > > > > On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 12:38 Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> Hi Rich, >> > > > >> >> > > > >> I don't have specific realistic concerns, I am trying to look >> ahead >> > > and >> > > > >> avoid a "how didn't yiu guys think of THIS!" moment 😀 >> > > > >> >> > > > >> Gary >> > > > >> >> > > > >> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 12:19 PM Rich Bowen <rbo...@rcbowen.com> >> wrote: >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > On Mar 8, 2024, at 12:09 PM, Gary D. Gregory < >> ggreg...@apache.org >> > > > >> > > > >> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > Sure, badging can be fun and it sure seems popular on >> GitHub: I do >> > > > >> like >> > > > >> > my Mars 2020 Helicopter Mission badge ( >> > > > https://github.com/garydgregory/) >> > > > >> ! >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > I wonder if there are there any privacy issue we should be >> able to >> > > > >> > foresee? >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > I would guess that badges would be derived from data that a >> member >> > > > >> from >> > > > >> > the internet public might be able to painstakingly assemble, >> but >> > > maybe >> > > > >> not. >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Every badge that I’ve come up with in brainstorming about this >> has >> > > > been >> > > > >> > either 1) based on public information or 2) something that the >> > > > recipient >> > > > >> > requests (like “I attended a particular event.”). None of it >> seemed >> > > > >> > particularly painstaking. Do you have concerns? >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > Should a person be allowed to opt out of a specific badge or >> the >> > > > whole >> > > > >> > badge system? >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > As I said in the email you responded to … >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> For every badge system I’ve looked at, nobody receives any >> badges >> > > > >> until >> > > > >> > they log into the system, creating their account. That is, >> these >> > > > systems >> > > > >> > are all opt-in by default. If people are actual averse to >> receiving >> > > > >> > congratulations for their activities, then don’t create a badge >> > > system >> > > > >> > account. Done and done. >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Whether a person can opt out of a particular badge, that’s >> more a >> > > > >> tooling >> > > > >> > question. I would assume that the answer is “yes” since this >> is just >> > > > >> data, >> > > > >> > and data can be deleted. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >> > > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Andrew Wetmore >> > >> > Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/> >> > Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >> >>
