Andrey, I agree with your point that ideally, the process just works. I think we can achieve this, but it still needs some development work.
On your point #1, what exactly do you mean when you say that developers who work on docs should be aware of the translation process? - Dmitry > On Mar 9, 2018, at 3:44 AM, Andrey Kurdumov <kant2...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > I could say, that I still around since Cordova, since I have applications > written in it. > The problems in first place with translation and CrowdIn when I last time > working with them is not the actual tooling, but whole workflow which > include translation. > > You could think about translation of docs process in the same way as you > think supporting of the implementation of library in different languages > would happens. > 1. You should put some limitation n the code you wrote (Simpler phrases > better translated with automation help). > 2. You should be careful with refactoring, since new code has to be > implemented in second language. (You should rephrase the text each time, > significant portion of text is re-written) > > Some specifics is that CrowdIn impose restrictions on the translation. > Uploading of the docs is not that big piece of whole translation. > Biggest problem for me is shaking the tree structure of the docs. There > some other issues, but let's limit discussion points. > > I would like to have following: > 1. That developers who work on docs would be aware of process how > translation is done. > 2. Establish some semi-formal workflow where I (any representative of > translation team) have ability to veto changes in docs which could lead to > disruption of translation work. > actually item 1 is enough, since item 2 automagically appear out of it. > > Without that, I think it is not practical for me translate docs, since all > work could be gone. > > I believe that translation process is more important then tool at this > point, since tools naturally arise from the process. That's answer on the > Dmitry proposal to revisit tools. > > Steve share concerns that Cordova community is limited on resources to > support translation. This is valid concerns, but same could be said about > testing and continuous integration. > People just follow established processes and everything just work. Same way > of thinking could be applied to translation. > > I still want to bring good Russian translation to Cordova. Maintaining > separate website is require to me do advertise for it to gain traction. In > case of having it on Cordova website make it visible to many people. > > > > 2018-03-09 2:00 GMT+02:00 Dmitry Blotsky <dmitry.blot...@gmail.com>: > >> Hey all, >> >> Any thoughts on this? >> >> Kindly, >> Dmitry >> >>> On Mar 2, 2018, at 12:24 AM, Dmitry Blotsky <dmitry.blot...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hey guys, >>> >>> Glad that Steve linked me to this discussion. >>> >>> The translation content on Crowdin is out of date because it needs to >> get “synced” with the English version. >>> The translation content in the repo is out of date because it needs to >> get “synced” with the Crowdin version. >>> >>> Neither of those steps is being done, as far as I know. >>> >>> Both of those steps were automated in an almost-finished state when I >> was last at Microsoft (April 2016), but they never made it into master. It >> was my goal to get translations become a part of the automated build, just >> like everything else, but it was deprioritised as a work task, and I didn’t >> have enough time to do it as an at-home task. >>> >>> Having said that, I’ll be done my master’s this April. If you think it >> might be useful, I can dedicate some cycles to finishing that automation. >> That way, on every commit (à la Travis), Crowdin will get “synced” with the >> English version, and the translation content will get “synced” with the >> Crowdin version. >>> >>> As an interim solution for the next short while, I think we can still >> remove translations for some languages for the latest versions, and point >> their “latest” and “dev" links to English where they don’t have a “latest” >> or “dev” translation. >>> >>> Finally, as a general point, I think the project needs someone who’s >> working on Cordova at least part-time (half a week each week), and knows >> the current site top to bottom. This is why I’m around Slack and GitHub >> still. After the docs/site merge, I think I’m the only one who’s left who >> has in-depth knowledge of the new code. Andrey, are you still on Cordova >> for a significant amount of time? If so, do you want to meet at some point >> to make a plan to audit the docs tools? >>> >>> Kindly, >>> Dmitry >>> >>>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 6:10 PM, Steven Gill <stevengil...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Created an issue for this: https://issues.apache.org/ >> jira/browse/CB-13931 >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Jesse <purplecabb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> +1 to bankruptcy >>>>> >>>>> The translation system was designed at a time where we had major >>>>> contributions from google, ibm, intel, microsoft ... which sadly has >> fallen >>>>> off. >>>>> >>>>> We should encourage community member to provide their own >> translations, via >>>>> their own sites. I believe Monaca has a considerable about of Japanese >>>>> material. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> @purplecabbage >>>>> risingj.com >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Steven Gill <stevengil...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree with your suggestion Jan. I don't think we as a project have >> the >>>>>> resources to manage translations. The process in place today is not >> being >>>>>> used and the translations are horribly out of date. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it is best to remove the translations from the docs site >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Jan Piotrowski < >> piotrow...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Andrey, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> you are certainly not wrong. While cleaning up cordova-docs >>>>>>> documentation (about how to develop and build the documentation >>>>>>> website) I found many bits and pieces of processes that seem to have >>>>>>> worked one time, including many things about translations. I don't >>>>>>> know why or when this all got broken by what changes and what the >> plan >>>>>>> was back then. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So I just collected all that content at >>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/blob/master/doc/translate.md >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But as this unfortunately doesn't seem to have been used in the last >>>>>>> ~2 years, the current state is - in my opinion - too broken to fix >>>>>>> (without major effort). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2018-02-27 19:18 GMT+01:00 Andrey Kurdumov <kant2...@googlemail.com >>> : >>>>>>>> From my perspective, as a person who was trying to do translation of >>>>>>> Russian language alone, translation is already bankrupted after new >>>>> docs >>>>>>> website design was implemented. >>>>>>>> The reason for my opinion was following >>>>>>>> - Documentation website was changed without thinking that keep >>>>>>> translation intact is difficult. As a result it was broken >>>>>>>> - People who change generation of website seriously think that >>>>> machine >>>>>>> translated content is usable. I recommend them read in Chinese recent >>>>>>> articles in computational biology, or for example latest news about >>>>>>> politics each day and try to understand not ‘idea’ of what’s going >> on, >>>>>> but >>>>>>> actually understand details. >>>>>>>> - All tools which I create to support quick iteration of >> translations >>>>>>> has to be rewritten in the new implementation and now has to be >>>>>>> re-implemented. >>>>>>>> - During migration all files was changed location and has to be >>>>>>> revalidated again for whole docs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If documentation website would not be touched, and if any change in >>>>>>> implementation of docs website could be vetoed by people who do >>>>>>> localization, I don’t see point investing time in the localization to >>>>> my >>>>>>> native language again. If I finish Russian , I could start >> translating >>>>> to >>>>>>> Ukrainian after that, since this is language which I also know >>>>> relatively >>>>>>> good. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Translation is time consuming, and if such efforts would be >> discarded >>>>>>> just for pure change of internal implementation, there no reason to >>>>> even >>>>>>> try. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Jan Piotrowski >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 7:22 PM >>>>>>>> To: dev >>>>>>>> Subject: Translation Bankruptcy? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> while doing some work on cordova-docs I also took a look at the >>>>>>>> translations again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Translations are (theoretically) done on Crowdin, synced from and to >>>>>>> Github: >>>>>>>> https://crowdin.com/project/cordova >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately this doesn't really seem to work: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. There is no (working) documentation on how to import or export >>>>>>>> files from or to Crowdin: >>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/blob/master/doc/translate.md >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2. There is no way to figure out the current state of the >>>>> translations >>>>>>>> vs. the actual documentation. >>>>>>>> 3. From looking at the languages I understand: Translations are >>>>> _very_ >>>>>>>> outdated vs. the actual documentation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 4. There are translated files for files that do not exist in English >>>>>> any >>>>>>> more: >>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-13161 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 5. There seem to be lots of auto translated bits in different >>>>>>>> languages, also Source Code and other technical stuff was >>>>>>>> (automatically) translated in several languages: >>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-11414 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To summarize: >>>>>>>> No translating is happening because of the above facts. The current >>>>>>>> translations are out of date, unmaintained, contra productive or >> even >>>>>>>> misleading. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My suggestion: >>>>>>>> Let's just face it and declare translation bankruptcy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We remove all translated content from the docs repo (latest + dev >>>>>>>> version only) and redirect each link to the matching English >> version. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Agree? >>>>>>>> Disagree? >>>>>>>> Suggestions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> --------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cordova.apache.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cordova.apache.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> --------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cordova.apache.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cordova.apache.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cordova.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cordova.apache.org >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cordova.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cordova.apache.org
