I didn't forget but from 8+ years of experience with GSOC, I've seen internet access become less of a concern. We might need to poll on that especially because various duties and taxes can greatly increase the cost of a laptop depending on the destination.
On 6/30/2019 11:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out, > some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area > and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that > traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too dangerous. > > This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's, > when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that > time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access. > All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I > felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the > evening. > > If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a > laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with > the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them > program in the evening. > > > On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: >> Interesting idea. And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would do >> the trick nicely. They can even run debian in development mode. >> >> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Sage, >>> >>> Thanks for this. >>> >>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the >>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible >>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor >>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean >>> that the >>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a >>> fully >>> up-to-date laptop. >>> >>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Craig >>> >>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected >>> interns. >>>> >>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a >>>> discussion >>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a >>>> *separate >>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the >>>> topic >>> of >>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, >>>> and >>> the >>>> known pitfalls. >>>> >>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only >>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because >>>> compiling >>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older >>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the >>>> application >>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators. >>>> >>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread >>>> quickly >>> to >>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic). >>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a >>>> laptop, so >>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first. >>> Mozilla >>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular >>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly >>>> web >>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns. >>>> >>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They >>>> often >>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop >>> until >>>> the internship was over. >>>> >>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as >>>> early as >>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop >>>> shipping. They >>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern >>>> selections >>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email >>>> asking for >>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule >>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they >>> were >>>> selected as an intern. >>>> >>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs >>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first >>>> weeks, >>> a >>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of >>>> immediately connecting interns to the community. >>>> >>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. >>>> That's >>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped >>>> inviting them to events on a short notice. >>>> >>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide >>> laptops >>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our >>> reach. >>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that >>> ships >>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one >>>> themselves. >>>> >>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some >>>> Indian >>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to >>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means >>>> they have >>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the >>> women's >>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and >>>> Africa >>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are >>>> expected to >>> be >>>> lienent when that happens. >>>> >>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy >>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have! >>>> >>>> Sage Sharp >>>> Outreachy Organizers >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads? I'm not on >>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but >>> I'm >>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue >>>>> where that >>>>> number came from. I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall >>> any >>>>> source for those numbers. Also, I thought that there was more >>>>> than one >>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was >>> only >>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money >>> directly to >>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long >>>>> discussions. >>>>> >>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to >>>>> Outreachy >>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited >>>>> one or a >>>>> few ASF projects and not others. I would hope that would be the >>>>> recommended workflow. >>>>> >>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money >>>>> they >>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't >>>>> directly >>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that >>>>> this >>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect >>>>> some of >>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF >>>>> project >>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was >>>>> donated >>>>> "on behalf of Entity X". >>>>> >>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code. Can we all agree >>>>> to that >>>>> and get going on Outreachy? >>>>> >>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial >>> barrier >>>>> to entry at the ASF. It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to >>> help >>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put >>> that >>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while >>>>> we get >>>>> going on Outreachy. IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well. >>>>> Every ASF >>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've >>> seen >>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced >>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the >>> source >>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity. But even then, the >>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more >>>>> expensive >>>>> computer. The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller >>>>> projects >>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful. Contributing >>>>> code to >>> the >>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to >>> GitHub >>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver. >>>>> >>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget: the ASF offers >>> VMs >>>>> to projects. Could they offer laptops as well? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> -Alex >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> Craig L Russell >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >> -- Kevin A. McGrail Member, Apache Software Foundation Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
