Keep in mind that many interns have second-hand systems. Think 10 year old macbook air. Projects also need to see what virtualization instructions and memory usages their dev environments need.
Sage Sharp Outreachy Organizer On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:32 AM Andrew Musselman <[email protected]> wrote: > Wouldn't it depend on the project too? Not all projects have Mozilla-level > builds. > > On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 10:00 AM Patricia Shanahan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable > > laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns > > either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from > > college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that > > will exclude some people. > > > > For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It seems > > worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion. > > > > On 6/30/2019 9:46 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > > > I didn't forget but from 8+ years of experience with GSOC, I've seen > > > internet access become less of a concern. We might need to poll on > that > > > especially because various duties and taxes can greatly increase the > > > cost of a laptop depending on the destination. > > > > > > On 6/30/2019 11:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > > >> I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out, > > >> some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area > > >> and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that > > >> traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too > > dangerous. > > >> > > >> This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's, > > >> when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that > > >> time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access. > > >> All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I > > >> felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the > > >> evening. > > >> > > >> If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a > > >> laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with > > >> the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them > > >> program in the evening. > > >> > > >> > > >> On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > > >>> Interesting idea. And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would > > do > > >>> the trick nicely. They can even run debian in development mode. > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi Sage, > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for this. > > >>>> > > >>>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of > the > > >>>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible > > >>>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor > > >>>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean > > >>>> that the > > >>>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a > > >>>> fully > > >>>> up-to-date laptop. > > >>>> > > >>>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight. > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks, > > >>>> > > >>>> Craig > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <[email protected]> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected > > >>>> interns. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a > > >>>>> discussion > > >>>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a > > >>>>> *separate > > >>>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the > > >>>>> topic > > >>>> of > > >>>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, > > >>>>> and > > >>>> the > > >>>>> known pitfalls. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only > > >>>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because > > >>>>> compiling > > >>>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on > older > > >>>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the > > >>>>> application > > >>>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread > > >>>>> quickly > > >>>> to > > >>>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest > > demographic). > > >>>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a > > >>>>> laptop, so > > >>>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first. > > >>>> Mozilla > > >>>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more > popular > > >>>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly > > >>>>> web > > >>>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They > > >>>>> often > > >>>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the > laptop > > >>>> until > > >>>>> the internship was over. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as > > >>>>> early as > > >>>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop > > >>>>> shipping. They > > >>>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern > > >>>>> selections > > >>>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email > > >>>>> asking for > > >>>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the > > rule > > >>>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means > they > > >>>> were > > >>>>> selected as an intern. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long > > customs > > >>>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first > > >>>>> weeks, > > >>>> a > > >>>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit > of > > >>>>> immediately connecting interns to the community. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. > > >>>>> That's > > >>>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply > stopped > > >>>>> inviting them to events on a short notice. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide > > >>>> laptops > > >>>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our > > >>>> reach. > > >>>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier > that > > >>>> ships > > >>>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy > one > > >>>>> themselves. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some > > >>>>> Indian > > >>>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order > to > > >>>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means > > >>>>> they have > > >>>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the > > >>>> women's > > >>>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and > > >>>>> Africa > > >>>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are > > >>>>> expected to > > >>>> be > > >>>>> lienent when that happens. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to > Outreachy > > >>>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Sage Sharp > > >>>>> Outreachy Organizers > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <[email protected] > > > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads? I'm not on > > >>>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, > > but > > >>>> I'm > > >>>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue > > >>>>>> where that > > >>>>>> number came from. I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't > > recall > > >>>> any > > >>>>>> source for those numbers. Also, I thought that there was more > > >>>>>> than one > > >>>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there > > was > > >>>> only > > >>>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money > > >>>> directly to > > >>>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these > long > > >>>>>> discussions. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to > > >>>>>> Outreachy > > >>>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited > > >>>>>> one or a > > >>>>>> few ASF projects and not others. I would hope that would be the > > >>>>>> recommended workflow. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money > > >>>>>> they > > >>>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't > > >>>>>> directly > > >>>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that > > >>>>>> this > > >>>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect > > >>>>>> some of > > >>>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF > > >>>>>> project > > >>>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was > > >>>>>> donated > > >>>>>> "on behalf of Entity X". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code. Can we all agree > > >>>>>> to that > > >>>>>> and get going on Outreachy? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial > > >>>> barrier > > >>>>>> to entry at the ASF. It would be nice if the ASF could find a way > > to > > >>>> help > > >>>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should > > put > > >>>> that > > >>>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while > > >>>>>> we get > > >>>>>> going on Outreachy. IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well. > > >>>>>> Every ASF > > >>>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects > I've > > >>>> seen > > >>>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against > inexperienced > > >>>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build > the > > >>>> source > > >>>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity. But even then, > the > > >>>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more > > >>>>>> expensive > > >>>>>> computer. The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller > > >>>>>> projects > > >>>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful. Contributing > > >>>>>> code to > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing > to > > >>>> GitHub > > >>>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget: the ASF > > offers > > >>>> VMs > > >>>>>> to projects. Could they offer laptops as well? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>> -Alex > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Craig L Russell > > >>>> [email protected] > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > > > > >
