Wouldn't it depend on the project too? Not all projects have Mozilla-level builds.
On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 10:00 AM Patricia Shanahan <[email protected]> wrote: > I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable > laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns > either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from > college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that > will exclude some people. > > For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It seems > worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion. > > On 6/30/2019 9:46 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > > I didn't forget but from 8+ years of experience with GSOC, I've seen > > internet access become less of a concern. We might need to poll on that > > especially because various duties and taxes can greatly increase the > > cost of a laptop depending on the destination. > > > > On 6/30/2019 11:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > >> I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out, > >> some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area > >> and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that > >> traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too > dangerous. > >> > >> This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's, > >> when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that > >> time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access. > >> All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I > >> felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the > >> evening. > >> > >> If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a > >> laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with > >> the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them > >> program in the evening. > >> > >> > >> On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > >>> Interesting idea. And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would > do > >>> the trick nicely. They can even run debian in development mode. > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Sage, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for this. > >>>> > >>>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the > >>>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible > >>>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor > >>>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean > >>>> that the > >>>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a > >>>> fully > >>>> up-to-date laptop. > >>>> > >>>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> > >>>> Craig > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected > >>>> interns. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a > >>>>> discussion > >>>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a > >>>>> *separate > >>>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the > >>>>> topic > >>>> of > >>>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, > >>>>> and > >>>> the > >>>>> known pitfalls. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only > >>>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because > >>>>> compiling > >>>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older > >>>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the > >>>>> application > >>>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators. > >>>>> > >>>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread > >>>>> quickly > >>>> to > >>>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest > demographic). > >>>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a > >>>>> laptop, so > >>>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first. > >>>> Mozilla > >>>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular > >>>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly > >>>>> web > >>>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns. > >>>>> > >>>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They > >>>>> often > >>>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop > >>>> until > >>>>> the internship was over. > >>>>> > >>>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as > >>>>> early as > >>>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop > >>>>> shipping. They > >>>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern > >>>>> selections > >>>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email > >>>>> asking for > >>>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the > rule > >>>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they > >>>> were > >>>>> selected as an intern. > >>>>> > >>>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long > customs > >>>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first > >>>>> weeks, > >>>> a > >>>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of > >>>>> immediately connecting interns to the community. > >>>>> > >>>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. > >>>>> That's > >>>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped > >>>>> inviting them to events on a short notice. > >>>>> > >>>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide > >>>> laptops > >>>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our > >>>> reach. > >>>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that > >>>> ships > >>>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one > >>>>> themselves. > >>>>> > >>>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some > >>>>> Indian > >>>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to > >>>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means > >>>>> they have > >>>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the > >>>> women's > >>>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and > >>>>> Africa > >>>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are > >>>>> expected to > >>>> be > >>>>> lienent when that happens. > >>>>> > >>>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy > >>>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have! > >>>>> > >>>>> Sage Sharp > >>>>> Outreachy Organizers > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads? I'm not on > >>>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, > but > >>>> I'm > >>>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue > >>>>>> where that > >>>>>> number came from. I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't > recall > >>>> any > >>>>>> source for those numbers. Also, I thought that there was more > >>>>>> than one > >>>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there > was > >>>> only > >>>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money > >>>> directly to > >>>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long > >>>>>> discussions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to > >>>>>> Outreachy > >>>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited > >>>>>> one or a > >>>>>> few ASF projects and not others. I would hope that would be the > >>>>>> recommended workflow. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money > >>>>>> they > >>>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't > >>>>>> directly > >>>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that > >>>>>> this > >>>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect > >>>>>> some of > >>>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF > >>>>>> project > >>>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was > >>>>>> donated > >>>>>> "on behalf of Entity X". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code. Can we all agree > >>>>>> to that > >>>>>> and get going on Outreachy? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial > >>>> barrier > >>>>>> to entry at the ASF. It would be nice if the ASF could find a way > to > >>>> help > >>>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should > put > >>>> that > >>>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while > >>>>>> we get > >>>>>> going on Outreachy. IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well. > >>>>>> Every ASF > >>>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've > >>>> seen > >>>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced > >>>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the > >>>> source > >>>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity. But even then, the > >>>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more > >>>>>> expensive > >>>>>> computer. The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller > >>>>>> projects > >>>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful. Contributing > >>>>>> code to > >>>> the > >>>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to > >>>> GitHub > >>>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget: the ASF > offers > >>>> VMs > >>>>>> to projects. Could they offer laptops as well? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>> -Alex > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Craig L Russell > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > >
