Michael Wechner wrote:
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
Michael Wechner wrote:
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
should be a rule as well. The reason for this rule is that regular
releases are important such that people can base their stuff on
something "static".
and my personal opinion is that collaborating on release management
OK. Again this is only your opinion. Thanks for sharing it! :-)
what is your opinion?
My opinion is that an Open Source project is not a company, where the
boss says: "Do or retire".
did I say that? Please don't make it sound as if
I have said something like that, because I clearly didn't!
Why are you overreacting on *my opinon*? I never told you said something
like that. You requested *my opinion*. This is what I wrote it. There
"the boss" is *an abstract figure*. It is not you. I the worse case, the
boss here is the PMC chair, wich is not you too. Keep in mind you are
not the only boss in his daily job here.
Here, people are supposed to help when they can and want. It must be
fun.
not everything is fun within an Open Source project.
I think one needs to tell people that there are responsibilities and
duties connected with roles within an Open Source project.
Saying something different than that would be very misleading.
How are we going to garantee and make sure that people will do something
they don't like to do? ;-) I don't see a way to do that. We can not
force every committer to do a release/[place here any other task] if he
don't want. This is the point. People needs to be motivated to do the
job. And as was told the motivation comes in differents packages for
differents people. And certainly pushing people to do something is not
the best way to motivate them. Hence I am -1 for that.
It is not a full time job for many of us. The PMC chair is a
different story, he has some responsabilities to do when he accepts
the chair, it is part of his duties. Every PMC chair knows that. As
we know, there is a lot of more tasks to do in an Open Source
project. I think Thorsten already pointed to them, so I will not
repeat it again. :-)
In short, every committer is free to decide where they want to help.
No, that's not necessarily true. This depends on the rules the community
decides on, just as the members of the ASF decided that a PMC chair
has duties.
There are different roles:
user
contributor
committer
PMC member (PMC chair)
ASF member (ASF board member)
As soon as you will "enter" the community at the level of a
committer you will have to follow certain rules and one will
have responsibilities and duties attached with it. These
rules of course are set by the community itself, but as long
as the community doesn't change them one needs to stick to
it otherwise the community will quickly go down the toilet.
Pushing people is certainly a faster way to end in the toilet. ;-) Let's
people help where they feel more confortable. Where they are sure they
give more to the community. Allow contribution to the a fun.
But doing the releases is not a lot of fun
and won't give a lot of recognition/appreciation or whatsoever,
so it's not such a big incentive for the individual doing such
a release, but it's important for the community at large.
(everyone wants to cook and eat, but nobody wants to do the dishes).
Money might be an incentive, but we don't have money. So what can we
do?!?!
What I saw in few years working in open source projects:
Release manager is very important. The RMs get fast and high people
recognition. Users often note the name of the person releasing the
code. They are often looking for the person, who sent the release
note. Hence, the users think the release manager is one of the most
important committers in a project. That means recognition and the
recognition is often the incentive. He becomes a hot spot. He get
visibility and thanks to the current Open Source boom, the money
can follow this recognition. ;-)
yeah, right ... just like the american dream
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream
lol. I showed a "dream" because you told money might be an incentive.
I just pointed out how is posible to reach this incentive. Is this a
dream or not?
I think it's very important to understand this.
What? I don't got your idea.
I really don't care. ;-)
why don't you care?
Because I don't participate in Open Source projects for money. Nobody
pays/paid my contributions. :-)
In my few years in FOSS I learned that not all of us are here for a
money hunt. I will said, some yes, but not all. Some of us is here
just for the fun of programming, for personal recognition or for the
fun of helping other people between other incentives. Am I naive? Maybe.
I don't think you are naive at all, but I think the stuff you are
saying is very misleading. For instance I would claim that
most people are working on resp. contributing this project (and not
just Lenya) because it's related to their daily work and in most cases
it means
money. I can't tell for people outside of Wyona, but I can clearly
tell for
people who work and worked for Wyona, because in the case of
Wyona I can excatly show you the correlation between project activity
and work within the company.
Hello Michi, I am still here! :-) ..... 2 years ago, I worked for Wyona
2-3 months. Maybe I am not as active as I will like to be, because I
have other tasks to do in other Open Source projects (even outside the
ASF). I feel my contributions in Cocoon have *direct* impact in Lenya
stability wich is a form of contribution. :-)
Another silents tasks I do for Lenya when I have time is reviewing the
commits. Most of the people don't know that. Certainly not, but from
time to time I do this. And I reply only if I found something that
nobody else already saw. Yes, I am not active on the mail list. I shows
up only when I think it is needed. In 4 years, I learned to not abuse
the people time by sending non-necesary mails. Is it my fault? Should I
care more about my own "visibility" in Lenya? ;-)
I don't think that's bad at all, but it shows me the reality and
not something which I might like it to be.
Well, It shows up we still need to build a community. We need to be more
carefuly when we propose new committers. I will prefer to have a small
list of really active committers than a big list of non-active
committers or committed only when it is related to his daily job.
(and I would claim that in most other projects it's just the same)
But often nothing is more gratificant than receiving a mail with a
"thank you" inside. I think all of us feel a good sensation when this
happens.
sure
And this is why we often found our selfs fixing bugs or adding a new
feature in places that we never used before nor plan to use.
I don't think that's the reason in most cases
Believe it, at least in my case, this is true. This is why I think I am
naive. As a sample, I was caring the most for java 1.3 compatibility in
cocoon 2.1.x branch. I can tell you I never used java 1.3 in my whole
life! I downloaded it because there was a need to be compatible with
this version. I use java 1.3 now just to test cocoon compatibility.
Also, my contributions in CInclude Transformer, chaperon block, hsqldb
block, html block, qdox block, stx, block just to mention few of them
where mostly to help other people.
Please note, I am not telling Lenya does not need to have a RM. I am
just telling nobody can be forced to be one. ;-)
I am not forcing anyone. Again, please don't give people the perception
that I said something like that. I didn't!
OK. It was my opinion again. ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
