Thorsten Scherler wrote:
On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 00:22 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
...
so, why aren't they being listed? I think they should be listed for the
record, for other people (e.g. contributors) to learn from how far one
has to go to become a committer, for people who are not being able to
follow every detail as other people are being able to, etc.
Doesn't that make sense?
It makes sense to create documentation about how to become an apache
lenya committer, like:
http://forrest.apache.org/committed.html
or http://wiki.apache.org/nutch/Becoming_A_Nutch_Developer
...but I reckon you prefer giving good advice and asking rhetoric
questions instead to contribute such documentation or are you willing to
spent some time on such documentation?
I am happy to write a proposal resp. compile the links you have sent above.
But I don't think such a proposal should be part of the documentation
right away but first should be discussed and voted on.
So, shall I start one within the Wiki or do you think there is a better
place?
If not, I reckon you are more
focused on spreading FUD then actually helping the Lenya community, or?
I am not spreading FUD, I was just asking a simple question: What do you
think are the merits of Bob to make him a committer?
Isn't it so much easier to criticize people, then actually doing some
work?
I think I have done a lot of work on Lenya. Yes, I am not so active
anymore code-wise directly at the moment,
but for instance I am still trying to help users. Also if time permits I
will try to improve the Neutron implementation
which I hope people will benefit from.
And I am not weighting how much have other people been done or doing,
because most of it is voluntarily resp. depends on what position you are
in (for instance PMC chair has some responsibilities, but it's voluntary
to be PMC chair) and I also don't think it's very healthy for the
relationship of this community to compare each other.
For instance Andreas and Joern spend a lot of time code-wise, but I
would never say that Jann or you are worse because you spend less time
code-wise.
Don't you think that all the prior vote threads in the archive
that contain hints what we are looking for in a committer aren't enough?
no, because everyone will interpret them differently and make their own
assumptions, which might be wrong or right
Do you think people are not intelligent enough to look up the mailing
list archive?
I guess they are intelligent enough, but I think it's a waste of
resources, that each person
has to analyze history and also the chances are high that people
interpret it quite differently
The reason why I have chosen not to meet *YOUR* demand is quite simple,
I want that more people review the mailing list and the bugzilla
themselves and starting to think what and who is good for this
community.
just say that, but don't mix it with an actual vote. One thing is the
process and the other how to
get people involved.
Don't you think more people should help identifying potential committer?
I don't think identifying is the problem
now you pick out single lines of other people's postings, generalize
statements that were never meant as such, and ask rhethorical
questions that sometimes border on hostile yet seldom convey a
palpable personal standpoint. you claim ideals of good-will, openness
and meritocracy, but frequently phrase them in a way as to be plain
rude to people.
why do you think these questions are rude? I don't think so.
lol.
Yeah and in the end that is the only thing that count, your own opinion,
isn't it?
I state my opionion and I am listening and am happy to accept other
opinions.
But my question was, why do you think my questions are rude? Is it the
tone? Is it that I seem to imply something? Is it that I might be right?
Answering this question would help me to understand why you think my
questions are rude and then mabye I could change something about it.
So far, I just get the impression, that you cannot answer my questions,
maybe because you did something wrong, or didn't really think about your
actions, or whatever. How should I know resp. I don't want to make wrong
assumptions and hence I am asking questions.
Three different PMC members have already pointed out that we
consider them rude, but I do not see that you are willing to listen to
this people. We are all equal here, but you are more equal then the
rest, aren't you?
i know i can be obnoxious at times, but people can just should at me
and tell me i'm a jerk. your style of hiding behind suggestions and
rhetorical questions is rather more difficult to deal with, and not
likely to foster an open discussion.
I am not hiding at all by posing questions, but I am asking questions
because I would like to get some statements.
I doubt that, since we (different people) are pointing out (for a while
now) that your way of asking question is quite offending, but you make
no intentions to enhance it, do you not care about what other say?
sure, but you might want to tell me what is offending about the questions.
Just as an example and I am not comparing you or any other person with
George Bush, but do you also
think it is offending to ask George Bush why the war in Iraq is happening?
If you might remember I was answering Thomas' question why I started Yanel.
Have you seen an answer from Thorsten lately why he is considering Alfresco?
Ask me stuff and I will be happy to answer (if time permits ;-)
1) I am tiered that you spread FUD about me and take words out of my
mouth.
On 2007-04-27 23:02:22 I wrote:
"...I am ATM evaluating different CMS for my current client and one of
them is Alfresco. ..."
Meaning I never stated anything about what I consider or not. More I
clearly stated that I act on MY CLIENT assignment.
Using this sentence to state I am considering Alfresco, is FUD!
I was just asking if you could post a summary of your findings such that
we can learn something from.
I am not asking for secrets of you or your clients, just a
constructive/neutral summary.
I think it still would be nice if you could post such a summary.
And I think you are interpreting too much into my questions, but you
should rather just read my questions
if Andreas or Joern might have posted them.
The Spanish government (which is my client) is evaluating around 10
different CMS (like Plone, Alfresco, Liferay, Daisy, Magnolia, ...). The
evaluation is not meet to be published on a public mailing list and is
very specific for different public organizations here in Spain.
sounds great. Maybe you can post a summary of the outcome of this
evaluation.
2) I just got twins and my time is very limited. Your statement implies
that I do not answer if my time permits, again FUD. If you have a look
in our changes listed on the website you will find that I am one of few
that each month is committing to the project (unless like you!). I
prefer doing some work then feeding your FUD. Do you think that I do not
spent enough time on lenya?
I think every help is appreciated, doesn't matter how big it is.
Are you not aware that I am as well active
on other Apache projects?
yes, for instance I see you spending quite some time on Forrest and also
some time Nutch
I think that's great.
But as said I don't think it's healthy for this community to compare
each other on voluntary work.
I also got three children and salaries to pay and spend time on Open
Source projects such as Yanel, Yulup, Open Development Initiative,
Nutch/Lucene, OSCOM and Lenya but that's my problem and I won't make it
a problem of this community.
3) Comparing your actions with mine regarding the involvement of
different CMS development is comparing apples with oranges, don't you
think?
I am not comparing. I was asking you for a summary re your findings re
Alfresco.
I guess Thomas was comparing ;-) but he might want to answer this
himself, because I really cannot speak for him.
why do you resign from pmc duties one week and start guideline
discussions the next?
well, I am still a committer and have to follow guidelines. I am still
an ASF member and think it's my responsibility to make sure that
guidelines an ASF bylaws are being followed.
lol
Funny, you normally do not pay much attention to our guidelines or stuff
we asked you million times before, why didn't you change the subject
line to prevent the odd situation in the voting thread?
yes, I should have changed the subject and I apologize for that, but any
other person
could have changed it as well, but you did it now and that's good.
I want to point
out that you REFUSED to review our guidelines when I made the guidelines
proposal, haven't you? How can you follow guidelines that you refused to
read?
I didn't agree on the guidelines, because I think we should have started
from scratch and only used
other guidlines as examples, such that we would really have to
understand the reasoning behind each rule
and that we also write this reasoning.
And I still think that would have been the right process.
...
I have resigned from PMC because I seem to have a very different opinion
where Lenya should go to and how this community should operate, but I am
ready to accept this and after a very long time expressing my opinion
without any change I don't think it makes sense to further spend time on it.
Makes sense?
No, regarding the above paragraph you do not want to spend more time on
this discussions, so what are you doing? Your words does not compute
with your actions further you are contradict yourself from one mail to
the other!
I don't think I contradict myself and I think after such a long time
without any real change within the PMC it just doesn't seem to make
sense. So I am a happy committer now and maybe in the future I will also
resign as a committer, but for the moment I still think I can contribute
something code-wise and I hope I will be able to do so soon again.
sorry, but this looks like trolling to me, especially since you have
decided not to contribute to lenya anymore.
I haven't decided to stop contributing anymore.
One commit in the last 6 month is saying something else, isn't it?. I
agree with Jörn, your actions look like a little kid that lost its
favorite toy and now is producing disturbance with the other kids out of
defiance.
I can only say that this is not the case
...
imnsho we have way too much meta-talk about guidelines, meritocracy,
pmc roles and whatnot, and way too little work is getting done.
I think this community will only survive in the long term if each member
will stick to guidelines and rules, whereas understanding the reasoning
of these guidelines is key and not the guidelines themselves.
So why aren't you the leading example? Seems you are just waiting that
this projects will fail, to be able to say "I told you so", aren't you?
not at all and I don't see any reason why I should hope for this.
At least not as long as it is still called Lenya, which is a combination
of the names of my first two sons ;-)
(but please don't take my last sentence too seriously)
But it's a
problem of getting to know people. This is why "being around for some
time" is not such a bad quality ;-) but it's also important to know why
somebody is being around :-)
Again see above 1) I am tiered that you spread FUD about me and take
words out of my mouth.
On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 14:58 +0200, Thorsten Scherler wrote:
However it is not "being around for some time" like you state, why I
propose him.
I explicitly state that being around is not a criteria! YOU said this!
I think it is a criteria, but only one and I would have been interested
what other criteria you see.
So why you pervert my word saying:
On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 15:14 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
You already started with one quality: Bob has been around for some
time
Are you incredible ignorant or high on something or just want to piss
people off?
DO NOT put words in my mouth and do not spread FUD!
salu2
P.S.: I did not wanted to get involved in such discussion anymore,
because I have no time ATM at all and very tiered of this ego centric
way of discussions.
P.P.S.: If I do not give an answer for a while it may be that I need to
change dippers, feed the babies, work in my profession or sleep.
It seems to me that you currently have a very hard time and I understand
your situation very well, since
I know how it is to combine family with work and I am sorry that it
might be very exhausting at the moment for you.
I can only ask you to read my questions and statements as they would
have been written by someone else and that you don't assume too much
about myself and I am sure you will view things differently.
Cheers
Michael
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
+41 44 272 91 61
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
