Jason, I am sorry but to disagree with you. Your statistics are still not telling a full story. I can glance at the commit graphs of these 76 logback contributors rather quickly to see really how "diverse" this community is.
* 35 (~45%) only ever made 1 contribution * 18 (~25%) have only ever made 2 contributions * 16 (~20%) have between 3-10 contributions. That leaves only 7 logback contributors (~10%) who actually do something. And of those 7, only 4 committed something in 2015 ... and Cecki is the leader by far. It's clearly a very visible one man show with sparse contributions from others. Based on these numbers, I think Log4J2 has the better community involvement. Cheers, Paul On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: > A contributor on that page is not a comparison of committers vs not. > People who have made pull requests to Maven are listed as contributors. > Just as they would for Log4J2. A measure, albeit one, of the overall > diversity of contribution. > > > On Jan 6, 2016, at 5:27 PM, Paul Benedict <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I am writing regarding this statement: "Ceki may do more commits but it’s > > certainly not a one man show. 76 contributors for Logback and 8 > > contributors for Log4J2." > > > > The numbers in themselves do not tell a full story. It's in appropriate > to > > conclude that since 76 > 8, therefore logback is a better choice. The 8 > > contributors in Log4J2 have been voted in according to Apache bylaws. > > Conversely, there aren't any bylaws for logback; the logback Github > project > > owner can freely grant commit privileges at will ... and evidently, they > > do! So the bar for committer rights is much (much) lower than at Apache. > I > > don't think the above comparison is fair toward log4j2. > > > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Arnaud Héritier <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> great, more constructive feedback :-) > >>> Thanks Jason > >>> > >>> Both projects are well known and widely used even if log4j v2 is > younger > >>> with less downloads such figures are not really representative with all > >>> caches/repositories managers I think. > >>> > >> > >> I don’t have a single peer that uses Log4j2 and that’s important to me. > I > >> do not believe Log4J2 is well known or widely use. I think 3 years of > >> releases is fairly representative in that Logback is getting close to > the > >> Log4J incoming edge count and if you remove all the incoming edges from > >> Apache there are not a lot of users. > >> > >>> About logback vs log4j I have really no real preference technically > >>> speaking (I had both branches working in the past and used them a lot > in > >> my > >>> professional life - http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/). > >>> > >>> In term of community, Log4J is in our apache community and we have few > >>> active committers arround. On Logback side even if I really appreciate > >> Ceki > >>> I'm always afraid about this one-man show project. (and Ceki isn't > >> perfect > >>> too when we see the nightmare of slf4j-api 1.5+ incompatibilities we > >> always > >>> have in 2016 !!). > >> > >> Ceki may do more commits but it’s certainly not a one man show. 76 > >> contributors for Logback and 8 contributors for Log4J2. It’s stable and > >> mature at this point with 54 releases versus 33 for Log4J2. I don’t > think > >> any person responsible for picking a package for logging would get much > >> support in their organization for Log4J2, as the data would suggest. I > >> think with few contributors and usage it would likely be deemed a less > wise > >> choice than Logback and possibly a risk. There are also lots of Apache > >> projects that use Logback. I think pragmatism is a factor in all the > other > >> projects at Apache who selected Logback. Being at Apache obviously > wasn’t > >> the determining criterion and it shouldn’t be. > >> > >>> I agree that we are just talking about a logging implementation but you > >> saw > >>> what it gave for eclipse/aether …. > >>> > >> > >> I’m not sure what your point is here. No one worked on any of the parts, > >> ever, whether here or at Eclipse. I doubt anyone will work on it when it > >> comes back. So I’m not sure what analogy you’re trying to make. > >> > >>> I'm clearly not enough involved enough in the project to try to > convince > >>> anyone about a choice to do but I can just say that not having a > >> colorized > >>> console in 2016 is .... irritating. > >>> > >>> For the problem reported by Gary I think that applying the fix in > >>> > >> > maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties > >>> ( > >>> > >> > https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530 > >>> ) > >>> is safe to be back-ported in master. It is just that > >>> org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactorywas for Log4J 1 AFAIU and now that > >>> Log4J2 is release/stabilized there is a new one : > >>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory > >>> > >> > >> If I asked Ceki for help I’d get it immediately also. Who isn’t going to > >> help there to get their library bundled with Maven? > >> > >>> For the replacement of the implementation and activate colors I prefer > to > >>> let active committers decide of what they are doing (I imagine that for > >> any > >>> choice they are doing it doesn't avoid you to use another one in your > own > >>> distribution ? > >>> > >>> I would prefer log4j2 but clearly I never merged it because of the > slf4j > >>> conflict that I don't understand (but I didn't spend a lot of time on > it) > >>> > >> > >> To me the most important factor is usage, of course you need some > >> threshold of developers so that people are working on it but even there > I’d > >> say it’s pretty sparse in Log4J2. But with widespread usage comes > >> examination, issue submissions, pull requests and ultimately more people > >> that contribute and that’s clearly the case with Logback. I don’t see > how > >> you can logically refute that and see Log4J2 a better choice because of > >> what organization it’s developed within? Logback has a community it just > >> doesn’t happen to be here, and Ceki's not some random guy. He also has a > >> long track record of open source dedication and contribution. > >> > >>> Cheers > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> These are the numbers I arrived at, happy to run them with different > >>>> coordinates but thought these were representative: > >>>> > >>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'log4j:log4j').inE.count() > >>>> ==>84570 > >>>> > >>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'ch.qos.logback:logback-classic').inE.count() > >>>> ==>62389 > >>>> > >>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'org.apache.logging.log4j:log4j-core').inE.count() > >>>> ==>3134 > >>>> > >>>> These are incoming edges across all versions of said coordinate. > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> As we said previously when the the question arose again there would > be > >> a > >>>> discussion. You may not remember, but I expect there to be a > discussion. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have built a graph of Maven Central to analyze the rank (count of > all > >>>> incoming edges) for Log4J2 and Logback and it is clear from those > >> numbers > >>>> that everyone has gone from Log4J to Logback. What has happened, I > >> believe > >>>> from the numbers, is that the community followed the founder of the > >> project > >>>> and not the owner project in pretty much the exact same way users went > >> with > >>>> Jenkins and not Hudson. Anyone is happy to take the graph and verify > >> this > >>>> themselves, or generate their own data from the machine that is > housing > >> the > >>>> copy of Maven Central at Google. > >>>>> > >>>>> Additionally Igor has an implementation for logging during concurrent > >>>> builds based on Logback that I would really like to use, and the color > >>>> logging is also easy with Logback. I do not want to use something that > >> the > >>>> community at large has not adopted. > >>>>> > >>>>> Again, anyone is welcome to the code and/or the data if they want to > >>>> verify this themselves. > >>>>> > >>>>> I also am not interested in a debate so if we disagree then just > leave > >>>> the simple implementation in place. I’m not philosophically motivated > >> much > >>>> here in these discussions but I’m vehemently opposed to integrating > >> Log4J2. > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Arnaud Héritier <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> thanks for this valuable comment Jason :( > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -1 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Do not merge this branch. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 4:05 AM, Tibor Digana <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud, > >>>>>>>> Do you plan a Release Version to merge this branch o master in > >> Maven? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Arnaud Héritier [via Maven] < > >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Just because only 2.4 was available when I updated this feature > >>>> branch > >>>>>>> few > >>>>>>>>> months ago. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Le mardi 5 janvier 2016, Gary Gregory <[hidden email] > >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=0>> a > écrit : > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the update. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Why not update the Log4j 2 dep from 2.4 to 2.5? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Gary > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Arnaud Héritier <[hidden email] > >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=1> > >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gary, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I fixed this in the branch : > >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/maven/commits/slf4j-log4j2.4 > >>>>>>>>>>> The fix is in > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >> > maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> ( > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530 > >>>>>>>>>>> ) > >>>>>>>>>>> It is the update I did after my old blog post : > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/ > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> BR > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email] > >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=2> > >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Can the next version of Maven be rid of this warning: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] The SLF4J binding actually used is not supported by > >> Maven: > >>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory > >>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] Maven supported bindings are: > >>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] (from > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >> > jar:file:/E:/Java/apache-maven-3.3.9/bin/../lib/maven-embedder-3.3.9.jar!/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> - ch.qos.logback.classic.LoggerContext > >>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactory > >>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.impl.SimpleLoggerFactory > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a step I am missing to use Log4j 2 cleanly? My steps > >> are > >>>>>>>>> here: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> https://garygregory.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/watch-maven-in-color/ > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email] > >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=3> > >>>> <javascript:;> > >>>>>>> | [hidden > >>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=4> > >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition > >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> > >>>>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition < > >> http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/ > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ > >>>>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>> ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier > >>>>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net > >>>>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com > >>>>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email] > >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=5> > >>>> <javascript:;> > >>>>>>> | [hidden > >>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=6> > >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;> > >>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition > >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> > >>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition < > http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/ > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> > >>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com > >>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ > >>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> ----- > >>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier > >>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net > >>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com > >>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>>>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the > >>>> discussion > >>>>>>>>> below: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/Log4j-Warning-tp5856237p5857870.html > >>>>>>>>> To start a new topic under Maven Developers, email > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from Maven Developers, click here > >>>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >> > http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&node=142166&code=dGlib3JkaWdhbmFAYXBhY2hlLm9yZ3wxNDIxNjZ8LTI4OTQ5MjEwMg== > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>>> NAML > >>>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >> > http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.naml&base=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespace&breadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> View this message in context: > >>>>>>> > >> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/Log4j-Warning-tp5856237p5857942.html > >>>>>>>> Sent from the Maven Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jason > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> Jason van Zyl > >>>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven > >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io > >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> ----- > >>>>>> Arnaud Héritier > >>>>>> http://aheritier.net > >>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com > >>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jason > >>>>> > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> Jason van Zyl > >>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven > >>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > >>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io > >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> > >>>> Jason > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Jason van Zyl > >>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven > >>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > >>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ----- > >>> Arnaud Héritier > >>> http://aheritier.net > >>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com > >>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jason > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> Jason van Zyl > >> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven > >> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > >> http://twitter.com/takari_io > >> --------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >> > >> > > Thanks, > > Jason > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Jason van Zyl > Founder, Takari and Apache Maven > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > http://twitter.com/takari_io > --------------------------------------------------------- > > {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >
