> On Jan 6, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org> wrote: > > Jason, I am sorry but to disagree with you. Your statistics are still not > telling a full story. I can glance at the commit graphs of these 76 logback > contributors rather quickly to see really how "diverse" this community is. > > * 35 (~45%) only ever made 1 contribution > * 18 (~25%) have only ever made 2 contributions > * 16 (~20%) have between 3-10 contributions. >
This is still awesome. I would love to have 35 contributors making one change. It all adds up. > That leaves only 7 logback contributors (~10%) who actually do something. > And of those 7, only 4 committed something in 2015 ... and Cecki is the > leader by far. It's clearly a very visible one man show with sparse > contributions from others. > > Based on these numbers, I think Log4J2 has the better community involvement. > Everyone will interpret numbers as they wish but it’s a simple thing even to make one change in an open source project. 99% of people never do so to have that number of people make one or two changes is a significant thing. > Cheers, > Paul > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Jason van Zyl <ja...@takari.io> wrote: > >> A contributor on that page is not a comparison of committers vs not. >> People who have made pull requests to Maven are listed as contributors. >> Just as they would for Log4J2. A measure, albeit one, of the overall >> diversity of contribution. >> >>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 5:27 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org> wrote: >>> >>> I am writing regarding this statement: "Ceki may do more commits but it’s >>> certainly not a one man show. 76 contributors for Logback and 8 >>> contributors for Log4J2." >>> >>> The numbers in themselves do not tell a full story. It's in appropriate >> to >>> conclude that since 76 > 8, therefore logback is a better choice. The 8 >>> contributors in Log4J2 have been voted in according to Apache bylaws. >>> Conversely, there aren't any bylaws for logback; the logback Github >> project >>> owner can freely grant commit privileges at will ... and evidently, they >>> do! So the bar for committer rights is much (much) lower than at Apache. >> I >>> don't think the above comparison is fair toward log4j2. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Jason van Zyl <ja...@takari.io> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Arnaud Héritier <aherit...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> great, more constructive feedback :-) >>>>> Thanks Jason >>>>> >>>>> Both projects are well known and widely used even if log4j v2 is >> younger >>>>> with less downloads such figures are not really representative with all >>>>> caches/repositories managers I think. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I don’t have a single peer that uses Log4j2 and that’s important to me. >> I >>>> do not believe Log4J2 is well known or widely use. I think 3 years of >>>> releases is fairly representative in that Logback is getting close to >> the >>>> Log4J incoming edge count and if you remove all the incoming edges from >>>> Apache there are not a lot of users. >>>> >>>>> About logback vs log4j I have really no real preference technically >>>>> speaking (I had both branches working in the past and used them a lot >> in >>>> my >>>>> professional life - http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/). >>>>> >>>>> In term of community, Log4J is in our apache community and we have few >>>>> active committers arround. On Logback side even if I really appreciate >>>> Ceki >>>>> I'm always afraid about this one-man show project. (and Ceki isn't >>>> perfect >>>>> too when we see the nightmare of slf4j-api 1.5+ incompatibilities we >>>> always >>>>> have in 2016 !!). >>>> >>>> Ceki may do more commits but it’s certainly not a one man show. 76 >>>> contributors for Logback and 8 contributors for Log4J2. It’s stable and >>>> mature at this point with 54 releases versus 33 for Log4J2. I don’t >> think >>>> any person responsible for picking a package for logging would get much >>>> support in their organization for Log4J2, as the data would suggest. I >>>> think with few contributors and usage it would likely be deemed a less >> wise >>>> choice than Logback and possibly a risk. There are also lots of Apache >>>> projects that use Logback. I think pragmatism is a factor in all the >> other >>>> projects at Apache who selected Logback. Being at Apache obviously >> wasn’t >>>> the determining criterion and it shouldn’t be. >>>> >>>>> I agree that we are just talking about a logging implementation but you >>>> saw >>>>> what it gave for eclipse/aether …. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I’m not sure what your point is here. No one worked on any of the parts, >>>> ever, whether here or at Eclipse. I doubt anyone will work on it when it >>>> comes back. So I’m not sure what analogy you’re trying to make. >>>> >>>>> I'm clearly not enough involved enough in the project to try to >> convince >>>>> anyone about a choice to do but I can just say that not having a >>>> colorized >>>>> console in 2016 is .... irritating. >>>>> >>>>> For the problem reported by Gary I think that applying the fix in >>>>> >>>> >> maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties >>>>> ( >>>>> >>>> >> https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530 >>>>> ) >>>>> is safe to be back-ported in master. It is just that >>>>> org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactorywas for Log4J 1 AFAIU and now that >>>>> Log4J2 is release/stabilized there is a new one : >>>>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory >>>>> >>>> >>>> If I asked Ceki for help I’d get it immediately also. Who isn’t going to >>>> help there to get their library bundled with Maven? >>>> >>>>> For the replacement of the implementation and activate colors I prefer >> to >>>>> let active committers decide of what they are doing (I imagine that for >>>> any >>>>> choice they are doing it doesn't avoid you to use another one in your >> own >>>>> distribution ? >>>>> >>>>> I would prefer log4j2 but clearly I never merged it because of the >> slf4j >>>>> conflict that I don't understand (but I didn't spend a lot of time on >> it) >>>>> >>>> >>>> To me the most important factor is usage, of course you need some >>>> threshold of developers so that people are working on it but even there >> I’d >>>> say it’s pretty sparse in Log4J2. But with widespread usage comes >>>> examination, issue submissions, pull requests and ultimately more people >>>> that contribute and that’s clearly the case with Logback. I don’t see >> how >>>> you can logically refute that and see Log4J2 a better choice because of >>>> what organization it’s developed within? Logback has a community it just >>>> doesn’t happen to be here, and Ceki's not some random guy. He also has a >>>> long track record of open source dedication and contribution. >>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <ja...@takari.io> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> These are the numbers I arrived at, happy to run them with different >>>>>> coordinates but thought these were representative: >>>>>> >>>>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'log4j:log4j').inE.count() >>>>>> ==>84570 >>>>>> >>>>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'ch.qos.logback:logback-classic').inE.count() >>>>>> ==>62389 >>>>>> >>>>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'org.apache.logging.log4j:log4j-core').inE.count() >>>>>> ==>3134 >>>>>> >>>>>> These are incoming edges across all versions of said coordinate. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Jason van Zyl <ja...@takari.io> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As we said previously when the the question arose again there would >> be >>>> a >>>>>> discussion. You may not remember, but I expect there to be a >> discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have built a graph of Maven Central to analyze the rank (count of >> all >>>>>> incoming edges) for Log4J2 and Logback and it is clear from those >>>> numbers >>>>>> that everyone has gone from Log4J to Logback. What has happened, I >>>> believe >>>>>> from the numbers, is that the community followed the founder of the >>>> project >>>>>> and not the owner project in pretty much the exact same way users went >>>> with >>>>>> Jenkins and not Hudson. Anyone is happy to take the graph and verify >>>> this >>>>>> themselves, or generate their own data from the machine that is >> housing >>>> the >>>>>> copy of Maven Central at Google. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Additionally Igor has an implementation for logging during concurrent >>>>>> builds based on Logback that I would really like to use, and the color >>>>>> logging is also easy with Logback. I do not want to use something that >>>> the >>>>>> community at large has not adopted. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, anyone is welcome to the code and/or the data if they want to >>>>>> verify this themselves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also am not interested in a debate so if we disagree then just >> leave >>>>>> the simple implementation in place. I’m not philosophically motivated >>>> much >>>>>> here in these discussions but I’m vehemently opposed to integrating >>>> Log4J2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Arnaud Héritier <aherit...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thanks for this valuable comment Jason :( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <ja...@takari.io> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -1 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do not merge this branch. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 4:05 AM, Tibor Digana <tibordig...@apache.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud, >>>>>>>>>> Do you plan a Release Version to merge this branch o master in >>>> Maven? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Arnaud Héritier [via Maven] < >>>>>>>>>> ml-node+s40175n5857870...@n5.nabble.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just because only 2.4 was available when I updated this feature >>>>>> branch >>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>> months ago. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Le mardi 5 janvier 2016, Gary Gregory <[hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=0>> a >> écrit : >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the update. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not update the Log4j 2 dep from 2.4 to 2.5? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Arnaud Héritier <[hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=1> >>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gary, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I fixed this in the branch : >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/maven/commits/slf4j-log4j2.4 >>>>>>>>>>>>> The fix is in >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ( >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530 >>>>>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the update I did after my old blog post : >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BR >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=2> >>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can the next version of Maven be rid of this warning: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] The SLF4J binding actually used is not supported by >>>> Maven: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] Maven supported bindings are: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] (from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> jar:file:/E:/Java/apache-maven-3.3.9/bin/../lib/maven-embedder-3.3.9.jar!/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ch.qos.logback.classic.LoggerContext >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactory >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.impl.SimpleLoggerFactory >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a step I am missing to use Log4j 2 cleanly? My steps >>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> https://garygregory.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/watch-maven-in-color/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=3> >>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>> | [hidden >>>>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=4> >>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition < >>>> http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=5> >>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>> | [hidden >>>>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=6> >>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition < >> http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the >>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> below: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/Log4j-Warning-tp5856237p5857870.html >>>>>>>>>>> To start a new topic under Maven Developers, email >>>>>>>>>>> ml-node+s40175n142166...@n5.nabble.com >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from Maven Developers, click here >>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&node=142166&code=dGlib3JkaWdhbmFAYXBhY2hlLm9yZ3wxNDIxNjZ8LTI4OTQ5MjEwMg== >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> NAML >>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.naml&base=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespace&breadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> View this message in context: >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/Log4j-Warning-tp5856237p5857942.html >>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Maven Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> Jason van Zyl >>>>>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Jason van Zyl >>>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Jason van Zyl >>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ----- >>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Jason van Zyl >>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>> >>>> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> Jason van Zyl >> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >> http://twitter.com/takari_io >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 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