Spot on Justin, I totally agree. My only nit is that often it's much
easier troubleshooting in Slack as opposed to the mailing lists, so I'm
game to allow some troubleshooting in Slack as long as the issue and
resolution makes it back to the lists. Given that slack message history is
being kept (although to what degree I'm not sure), we could fairly easily
link to the start of a discussion in slack in the wrap-up mailing list
email for future reference.
Jon
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:08 PM Casey Stella <ceste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Piling on, +1 to what Justin said.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:42 PM Michael Miklavcic <
> michael.miklav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm also +1 to Justin's points.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 10:38 AM Nick Allen <n...@nickallen.org> wrote:
> >
> > > +1 to all your points Justin.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 10:08 AM Justin Leet <justinjl...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I wanted to add back onto this thread after putting some more thought
> > > into
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > I like Slack for the type of small developer "what's going on here?"
> > type
> > > > discussions. That's the kind of thing I like being real-time ("Hey,
> > full
> > > > dev is acting weird", "What's the basic layout of this stuff?",
> > "Anybody
> > > > else seen this test failure?", etc.). I think we've been pretty good
> > > about
> > > > keeping our decision type dev discussions to the list (e.g. this
> exact
> > > > conversation).
> > > >
> > > > We've been doing this more, but I would like to see more of the user
> > and
> > > > troubleshooting move to the list. I think we've gotten a bit better
> > > about
> > > > it as we've settled into Slack, but having that sort of helpful stuff
> > > > exposed and searchable for users who come in afterwards is a big
> > selling
> > > > point of the lists, imo.
> > > >
> > > > To add onto this, I'd probably like to see
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/METRON/Community+Resources#CommunityResources-ApacheMetronCommunityResources
> > > > (and any other relevant links) updated to emphasize a Slack focus on
> > > > developing Metron itself, and the user lists for configuration,
> > > > troubleshooting, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Essentially, I'm proposing:
> > > > Dev list / Jira / PRs as usual for any actual decisions + concrete
> > > feature
> > > > discussion/review.
> > > > Slack for Metron development "Hey, anyone seen this or have insight
> or
> > a
> > > > starting point?" and "I'm seeing something weird in our tests" type
> > stuff
> > > > User list for usage and troubleshooting questions. Generally,
> > > discussions
> > > > like this in Slack should be redirected to the user list.
> > > >
> > > > Is this a reasonable way separate our concerns here?
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:37 AM Michael Miklavcic <
> > > > michael.miklav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yeah, I'm also surprised by that comment about the mailing list
> > > activity.
> > > > > Our dev/user list discussions are by far more active than they've
> > ever
> > > > > been. Just have a look at the list of DISCUSS threads that have
> come
> > up
> > > > in
> > > > > the past few months and it's clear that not only participation has
> > > > > increased, but diversity of topic and participant.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 8:08 AM Casey Stella <ceste...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Not for nothing, but at least according to the last board report
> > > that I
> > > > > > submitted, the user@ traffic is up 100% and the dev list traffic
> > is
> > > > flat
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > compared to last quarter. That's not to say that we couldn't
> stand
> > > > more
> > > > > > discussion on the lists, but a lot of the dev discussion happens
> on
> > > > > github
> > > > > > and JIRA and I'm happy to see an uptick in user traffic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:05 AM Otto Fowler <
> > > ottobackwa...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I wouldn’t be so quick to related the slack discussion with
> > > perceived
> > > > > > > activity on the list.
> > > > > > > That is more do to the other things that are bigger issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On October 24, 2018 at 07:15:30, Nick Allen (
> n...@nickallen.org)
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have heard recently people thought Metron is sort of dead
> > just
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > the mailing list is not so active anymore!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That is exactly my concern.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 2:49 AM Ali Nazemian <
> > alinazem...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I kind of expect to have Slack for more dev related
> discussions
> > > > > rather
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > user QA. I guess it is quite common to expect mailing list to
> > be
> > > > used
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the purpose of knowledge sharing to make sure it will be
> > > accessible
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > > other users as well. Of course, it is a trade-off that most
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > Apache projects decided to accept the risk of keeping user
> > > related
> > > > > > > > discussions out of Slack/IRC. However, it sometimes happens
> to
> > > see
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > mixture of questions coming to Slack. I have heard recently
> > > people
> > > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > > Metron is sort of dead just because the mailing list is not
> so
> > > > active
> > > > > > > > anymore!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > Ali
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:23 AM Casey Stella <
> > ceste...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Agreed, the benefit of the mailing list is that it’s
> > searchable
> > > > by
> > > > > > > > ponymail
> > > > > > > > > and the major search engines.
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 17:18 Nick Allen <
> n...@nickallen.org
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know that it is the same kind of searchable. Is
> it
> > > > being
> > > > > > > > indexed
> > > > > > > > > > by the major search engines? I have never used a search
> > > engine
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > uncovered the answer to my problem in a Slack archive.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:05 PM Otto Fowler <
> > > > > > ottobackwa...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > According to Greg Stein, an infra admin on the NiFi
> > slack,
> > > > the
> > > > > > ASF
> > > > > > > > > slack
> > > > > > > > > > > that metron is in IS the standard plan, not the free
> one
> > > and
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > searchable
> > > > > > > > > > > past 10,000 messages.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On October 22, 2018 at 15:35:51, Michael Miklavcic (
> > > > > > > > > > > michael.miklav...@gmail.com) wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ...From an archival and broader reach point of view, I
> do
> > > > think
> > > > > > > > there's
> > > > > > > > > > > something to be said about using the mailing list. It's
> > > also
> > > > > > easier
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > link
> > > > > > > > > > > to Q/A threads from the mailing list archives and do
> > > > > searches...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1aa85bc13d41e04a1f85c3100c2b803abe35d79b54062bbeaab83ace@%3Cdev.metron.apache.org%3E
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How very Inception.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 1:32 PM Michael Miklavcic <
> > > > > > > > > > > michael.miklav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I just want to point out that we currently have 32
> > > members
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > Metron
> > > > > > > > > > > > Slack channel which I personally think is a great
> sign.
> > > > This
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > community perspective and helps foster interactive
> > > sessions
> > > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > > > required.
> > > > > > > > > > > > From an archival and broader reach point of view, I
> do
> > > > think
> > > > > > > > there's
> > > > > > > > > > > > something to be said about using the mailing list.
> It's
> > > > also
> > > > > > > easier
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > link
> > > > > > > > > > > > to Q/A threads from the mailing list archives and do
> > > > > searches.
> > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > such, I
> > > > > > > > > > > > would also go along with Nick's suggestion and urge
> > > members
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > prefer
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > user/dev list where possible.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:51 AM Justin Leet <
> > > > > > > > justinjl...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> If we want to push more discussion to the dev list,
> my
> > > > > obvious
> > > > > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > >> question then is "What are we hoping to get out of
> > > > > > > Slack/irc/other
> > > > > > > > > > > >> interactive medium?". What discussion would we even
> > want
> > > > on
> > > > > > > there,
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > >> can't have decisions and don't want usage/support?
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:44 PM Casey Stella <
> > > > > > > ceste...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I am of 2 minds, but I tend to agree. On the one
> > hand,
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > preference that we use the mailing lists for the
> > > reasons
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > stated
> > > > > > > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > also because not everyone has access to slack
> > > > generally).
> > > > > On
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > hand, I think an interactive medium like Slack
> has a
> > > lot
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > advantages
> > > > > > > > > > > >> in
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > terms of user satisfaction. Ultimately, though, we
> > may
> > > > > > satisfy
> > > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > > >> at
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > the cost of not persisting the discussion and
> > > satisfying
> > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > users.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I'll go along with a specific preference to drive
> > more
> > > > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > mailing list.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Casey
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:18 PM Nick Allen <
> > > > > > > n...@nickallen.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > It seems that we are seeing a lot of Metron
> usage
> > > and
> > > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > > > > >> questions
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > on
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > the Slack Channel.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > These are questions that previously would have
> > been
> > > > > > directed
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> User
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > or
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Dev mailing lists. Since this is occurring in
> the
> > > > Slack
> > > > > > > > Channel,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > conversations are not archived.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > In my opinion, this is not good for the Metron
> > > > > community.
> > > > > > > > Having
> > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > persisted in a discoverable form (like a mailing
> > > list
> > > > > > > archive)
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > >> only
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > helps support current users, but also helps
> > > > *potential*
> > > > > > > users
> > > > > > > > > > > >> understand
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > how Metron is being used.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Does anyone else agree or disagree? At a
> minimum,
> > I
> > > > feel
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > >> do
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > something to direct these conversations back to
> > the
> > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > list.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > A.Nazemian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
--
Jon Zeolla
