Hi Bernhard, all,
Bernhard Dippold wrote:
[...]
I do understand all of your reactions, too, but wanted to show that
in this case there have been some misinterpretations WRT the writer
of the wiki page as well as to it's intentions (at in the way, I
understood it).
I don't want to talk again about Kami's work - there have been
chances for better communication and integration in the past - but we
should find a way to solve the other, more general problems you
raised here:
This is not directed toward Kami, but about an overall lake of
communication on [...] the OpenOffice.org project.
Communication among developers and "non-coders" is a topic in
probably every open source project, but OpenOffice.org is different
from most of the other projects, because the community was build
around an exsting high quality code basis.
Yes and as Andre pointed, there have been several improvements over the
years.
Therefore we became a huge community with relatively less developers
- and the developers kept the communication basis they knew from
before: direct communication and Issuezilla. I don't know if they
used developer mailing lists before - propbably some newsgroups or
similar - but now they communicate with other *developers* on these
lists.
And a lot on IRC which is good too.
There are only a few mailing lists where you can see developers
discussions or replies to questions besides the lists in coding
projects - [EMAIL PROTECTED], discuss@, and during the last weeks [EMAIL
PROTECTED]
come to my mind.
Yes and this is one of the issue. You have to guess every time what is
happening and what is behind this happening.
The wiki is another media where proposals are made in a transparent way,
great. But some of the proposals here need to have more warnings than
others because that will impact all of us.
An example :
http://fr.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=70748
http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/make_everything_as_simple_as
http://specs.openoffice.org/writer/numbering/OutlineLevel.odt
This is very interesting and will have a quite important level of impact
on the way OOo is used, trained, marketed...
We (all of us who are directly connected with the user base) are
concerned and could give a valuable feedback on the style feature.
But unfortunately we are not considered as the voice who can bring that
feedback...
releases@ is a bit different: Here it is known that non-coders are
discussing with developers. MOst of these discussions should have
been taken place beforehand, but this is exactly what I'd like to
discuss:
There is no real discussion between developers and other community
members in an early stage of any development!
Yes and believe me, it drives us to very complicated situations in front
of our users. But yes, this is the exact topic of a discussion Andre and
Cloph have bring to the CC.
From what I heard at Lyon (and read on the lists frequented by
developers) there is a movement towards the community inside Sun,
but mostly these movements have been towards external developers,
not to non-coding projects (except l10n, which stands inbetween).
One exception has been made by Frank Peters and Uwe Fischer by moving
the work on Online Help inside the Documentation Project, others may
be there, that I don't see in the moment.
there are others, like the Chart project where we have been able to
establish a real dialog and this has allowed non coders and coders to
participate.
The Chart project is interacting with the Website project and the
Documentation project, including users of the NLC communities and this
is a good example on how we could work together and share our value.
This lack of communication causes frustration - no question. And your
examples show points where informations should have been shared
between developers and other parts of the community.
I don't think that they did it on purpose - I assume that it didn't
come to their mind, that - there are people willing to help with
"official" graphics and localized web pages for the Update
Notification. - they should have included the Documentation Project
when they thought about a central repository for templates. - this
would have been the most appropriate list for Kami to ask for support
and explain his work
In fact this lack of communication is repeatedly put on the table. You
spoke about the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, and I always admire cloph patience here...
I would guess that most of the developers didin't know about out
template contest at all even if it has been announced on several
(non-coding) lists, on the home page and in our newsletter.
yes, this is what I said, we are not a community...
But how could we change this?
What I feel is, that the gap between developers and non-coders is
becoming a bit smaller, but there is still a lot to do.
There is mostly for me a market place to find that will allow the
pressure lowering down. We know that Sun need money so we should all
speak about this and propose solutions. I've learned from the OOoCon
that the online update feature will be a revenue stream for Sun. Ok,
then ? Where is it designed and what is our (the community) place in
this figure ?
I didn't think of pointing to this list when I read Jörg Jahnke's
information about the online update pages, I just asked for the
source of the graphic and Jörg attached it to an issue, so we can
translate it.
yes, but if the page is already on line, it's simply too late. I never
said that it is done in purpose to add issues, but the result is the same.
I didn't inform th UI project, when the Art Project started working
on Icons for OOo3 (I did it later on - without any reply BTW)
...
I didn't point to the Marketing Project to discuss what should be
presented on the Online Update web page.
In my eyes this is the only way to increase real *team* work between
developers and us non-coders:
To intensify the awareness of the others.
Yes, you're right. So how could we do that, we need that developers have
this willing as well as us. If we don't change the "the one who
implements is the winner" posture, whatever you try to do would be
defeated. Sun has a marketing line for OOo (where developers could have
a different one) and where the community have nothing to say. Even if
you know that you can help and share a lot.
OpenOffice.org is so huge, that it is impossible to stay informed
about what happens in other projects. Our newsletter gives a short
overview of the most important things, so I encourage everybody
(including each developer) to subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and read at
least the titles.
Currently, there is also the lists, but also the wiki, but also Planet
OOo, but also Gullfoss
If something is not going the right way (and even if there are
several points that might lead to thoughts, this would have been done
by purpose), everybody should feel responsible to involve the people
or projects concerned with that topic.
this is a lot of energy to be the one who always ask about
clarification, communication, coordination and most of the time the
answer is that you're not representative enough...
I don't want OpenOffice.org to be divided in subprojects where nobody
feels to be part of the whole but only of it's *own* project.
I agree with you, this has been one of my willing since the beginning
and even between NLC projects.
Many
community members are part of several projects and subscribed to a
lot of lists. If we all work on interaction between projects and
idividuals this will improve communication - and depending on the
reaction of the addressed we'll be able to distinguish between
inattentiveness and intentional ignorance.
As Andre said, we (NLC leads) have already been notified that Sun is not
interested by our user base feedback. I voted for the last survey
conducted by IDC but again it's English only so what would be the
results of this survey and what should I answer when users ask me what
to do with this survey they don't understand a word ? They feel useless.
Best regards
Bernhard
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