Understood on all points David - I was responding more to you on the general topic and I understand your concerns from Jacques post. Thanks for clarifying - and keep the book references coming!
Cheers, Ruppert On Mar 7, 2010, at 5:02 PM, David E Jones wrote: > > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally > important to successful collaboration and all of us working together to build > a strong community and make good software. Scott's response to my recent > multi-tenant changes is a great example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll > be able to respond to that feedback in a helpful way. > > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed to > be trying to get people to do certain things because of rules. Confronting > others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good thing IMO, but this was > going beyond that with a specific interpretation of the rules that didn't > seem to fit and specific remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed > somewhat unhelpful (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that > are not consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF policies), and > then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority and > possible legal action if the demands were not met, calling it all "justice". > And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my message to confront Jacques > for that behavior. > > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I > were to push anything I guess it would be to read the book "Simpleology" by > Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff about problem solving and > collaborating with others. > > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of > Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read and does the best > job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality > and subject/object distinction (some key elements of clear and useful > thinking). Okay, that's only related to this topic so much, but I had to > mention it. This makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a > walk and do some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun redesigning > the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and refreshing, sort of > a Moqui ball like experience). > > -David > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up that >> the rules as they have been defined have been broken again? What was done >> wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but then that wasn't ok - and it >> goes from there. >> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth >> SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of defensiveness, it should be >> greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, >> an innocuous request to revert something that doesn't follow the PMC >> guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a >> passive aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt >> attacked. >> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be >> defensive in the face of someone looking at their work - then you can get >> back to building up the process of having people work together. When >> someone cries wolf every time anyone else mentions anything about the work - >> instead of taking the initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where >> this slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone >> questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often IMO - and the project >> would be better for it. >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems to >>> be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals for what I write), I guess >>> we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that my point is >>> that "Justice" is not an effective way to get people to do, or not do, >>> something. >>> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it is >>> trying to get other people to follow the rules. Unfortunately justice >>> efforts are usually not about restitution and are instead about punishment. >>> And what is the point of that if not some form of revenge? >>> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the >>> others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that justifies the >>> meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law >>> do you feel an obligation to follow it, or do you feel justified in harming >>> others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most >>> people in the world who think that they can blame their actions on those >>> who make the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. >>> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us all >>> get along and collaborate to produce better software? >>> >>> -David >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the >>>> rules is another problem. >>>> >>>> Jacques >>>> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[email protected]> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a >>>>> priority for people? >>>>> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective >>>>> and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". >>>>> >>>>> -David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" >>>>>>>> and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections >>>>>>>> of this page in the following) >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache >>>>>>>> trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his >>>>>>>> company. >>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help and I'm >>>>>> happy with that. >>>>>> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and threatening >>>>>>> to contact higher level ASF admins before discussing it on >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier >>>>>> if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the name+logo >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote >>>>>> this message. I must say that in an effort to not put all on >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider websites >>>>>>> absolutely falls within the realm of nominative fair use IMO. >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for >>>>>>> OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display the logo? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else about >>>>>> that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz >>>>>> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a minor >>>>>>> issue and can easily be rectified without scaremongering by >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in question. >>>>>> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the >>>>>> reason of my message. When you want justice, you can't hide >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do not >>>>>>> have the resources to do an adequate job of it ourselves. >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively >>>>>>> "police" is what is written at the bottom of the ASF >>>>>>> guideline document: >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow any >>>>>> third party to claim any association with the Apache >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval or >>>>>> support by ASF for any third party products or services." >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree >>>>>> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of sending >>>>>>> out threatening emails. >>>>>> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me >>>>>> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for one >>>>>>> week? Do you really need to spark another one right now? >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about >>>>>> lookin "bad", I just want justice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacques >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Scott >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is >>>>>>> irrelevant in my message? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document and >>>>>>> I really would prefer it if you kept your thoughts to the >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring >>>>>>> people away from marketing the project for us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey guys, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked us >>>>>>>> to send him a demand. >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the >>>>>>>> credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" >>>>>>>> and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to sections >>>>>>>> of this page in the following) >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache >>>>>>>> trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his >>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell >>>>>>>> (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though I >>>>>>>> don't think it's the way to go, I already asked you to send >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). >>>>>>>> Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. It's a >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on >>>>>>>> feeding the tweets as you already suggested. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only it >>>>>>>> uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also shows it on >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to >>>>>>>> http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and >>>>>>>> similar) >>>>>>>> graphic logos") >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not apply >>>>>>>> also to >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their >>>>>>>> pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that if it's >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should only >>>>>>>> link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the >>>>>>>> "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if all >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official >>>>>>>> Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong also as >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain >>>>>>>> name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other cases?) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable >>>>>>>> (proliferation). I made my best to explain the rules, if you >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases >>>>>>>> that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or >>>>>>>> anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so much time >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this >>>>>>>> privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party (ie not >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no >>>>>>>> injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts they >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being >>>>>>>> to show) and nobody will win anything. There are rules, >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense for >>>>>>>>> all service providers to do this - so please let's not >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it >>>>>>>>> at all, would be to enhance the service providers page on >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full >>>>>>>>> page, linked from the service provider page, where people >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your own >>>>>>>>> website is for, but I'm all for enhancing everyone's >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares >>>>>>>>>> they can push it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is news: >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/"; target="_blank">Now >>>>>>>>>>> OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from an enduser >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an example.</a> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no idea. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev >>>>>>>>>>> Log: >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other news >>>>>>>>>>> offerings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html >>>>>>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff >>>>>>>>>>> === === === >>>>>>>>>>> ===================================================================== >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ >>>>>>>>>>> apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ >>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF >>>>>>>>>>> export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ >>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV >>>>>>>>>>> export</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ >>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list >>>>>>>>>>> screen</a> on <a >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
