The log states: Reverted commit 919905 in order to ensure that this twitter account is not being misrepresented. Will send this to legal and if this is ok, will put this back.:q
so lets wait until he gets an answer from legal. Regards, hans On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 11:02 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > Hans, > > I think as Tim said in the modified log of r920213 we are only waiting that > you send us (committers) the credentials. > > For the news section, I think your 1st intend was better, and from what I > have understood from Tim's comment he also agree. So my > opininon is that as soon as all commiters will have an access to this Tweeter > account, we could put back the "original Follow Us" > (as Tim called it in the modified log of r920213) button in main site header > and this issue would be closed. At this stage, do we > really need to have a vote and all this kind of stuff? Personnally I don't > think so. > > Maybe there is something that you don't like in this solution? Then could you > please explain what? > > Thanks > > Jacques > > From: "Hans Bakker" <[email protected]> > > Jacques, > > Let first see what Tims actions will result in. I did not sent any > > passwords yet. > > > > It would also be interesting to know what the opinion of our new PMC > > chair Jacopo is, he is awfully quiet. When we do not agree, he has to > > take a decision. > > > > I still think that with this twitter feed i provide a service to casual > > end users to keep them informed about the major topics in the project. > > Like a blog what is often updated. I still do not understand why it > > cannot be in the news section while other blogs are accepted there. > > > > Regards, > > Hans > > > > On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 10:29 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> David, > >> > >> Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into > >> account our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried this > >> harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to > >> do it and actually I was expecting some reactions. > >> It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the > >> credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but > >> maybe > >> other committers got it? > >> > >> Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters > >> email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair if > >> we > >> (commiters) have no access to it? > >> > >> One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put > >> a button to it from the main page. It's only that it > >> should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen... > >> > >> Jacques > >> > >> From: "David E Jones" <[email protected]> > >> > > >> > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is > >> > vitally important to successful collaboration and all of > >> > us > >> > working together to build a strong community and make good software. > >> > Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a > >> > great > >> > example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that > >> > feedback in a helpful way. > >> > > >> > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques > >> > seemed to be trying to get people to do certain things > >> > because > >> > of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good > >> > thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a > >> > specific > >> > interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific > >> > remedies to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat > >> > unhelpful > >> > (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not > >> > consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF > >> > policies), > >> > and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater > >> > authority and possible legal action if the demands were not > >> > met, > >> > calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my > >> > message to confront Jacques for that behavior. > >> > > >> > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, > >> > if I were to push anything I guess it would be to read > >> > the > >> > book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff > >> > about problem solving and collaborating with others. > >> > > >> > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of > >> > Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun read > >> > and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes > >> > maddening topics of quality and subject/object distinction > >> > (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only > >> > related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it. > >> > This > >> > makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do > >> > some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun > >> > redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and > >> > refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience). > >> > > >> > -David > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote: > >> > > >> >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up > >> >> that the rules as they have been defined have been > >> >> broken > >> >> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but > >> >> then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there. > >> >> > >> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the > >> >> truth SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of > >> >> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's > >> >> look into that together." Instead, an innocuous request > >> >> to > >> >> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's > >> >> for that matter - was met with resistance and a passive > >> >> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt > >> >> attacked. > >> >> > >> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to > >> >> not be defensive in the face of someone looking at their > >> >> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having > >> >> people work together. When someone cries wolf every time > >> >> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the > >> >> initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where > >> >> this > >> >> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone > >> >> questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often > >> >> IMO - > >> >> and the project would be better for it. > >> >> > >> >> Cheers, > >> >> Ruppert > >> >> > >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written > >> >>> (seems to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals > >> >>> for > >> >>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I > >> >>> should say that my point is that "Justice" is not an > >> >>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something. > >> >>> > >> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, > >> >>> it is trying to get other people to follow the rules. > >> >>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and > >> >>> are instead about punishment. And what is the point of > >> >>> that > >> >>> if not some form of revenge? > >> >>> > >> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the > >> >>> others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say that > >> >>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If > >> >>> there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to follow > >> >>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you > >> >>> to? If so then you're in a group with most people in the > >> >>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make > >> >>> the rules or tell them to do (or not do) something. > >> >>> > >> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us > >> >>> all get along and collaborate to produce better > >> >>> software? > >> >>> > >> >>> -David > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make > >> >>>> the rules is another problem. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Jacques > >> >>>> > >> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[email protected]> > >> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a > >> >>>>> priority for people? > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly > >> >>>>> subjective and usually just a nice way of saying "revenge". > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> -David > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[email protected]> > >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" > >> >>>>>>>> "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to > >> >>>>>>>> sections of this page in the following) > >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache > >> >>>>>>>> trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his > >> >>>>>>>> company. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com > >> >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with > >> >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or > >> >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help > >> >>>>>> and I'm > >> >>>>>> happy with that. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and > >> >>>>>>> threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before > >> >>>>>>> discussing > >> >>>>>>> it on > >> >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been > >> >>>>>> easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably the > >> >>>>>> name+logo > >> >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I > >> >>>>>> wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not put > >> >>>>>> all on > >> >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider > >> >>>>>>> websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative > >> >>>>>>> fair > >> >>>>>>> use IMO. > >> >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for > >> >>>>>>> OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and display > >> >>>>>>> the logo? > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else > >> >>>>>> about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a > >> >>>>>>> minor issue and can easily be rectified without > >> >>>>>>> scaremongering by > >> >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in > >> >>>>>>> question. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was > >> >>>>>> the reason of my message. When you want justice, you > >> >>>>>> can't > >> >>>>>> hide > >> >>>>>> facts, even minor ones. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we > >> >>>>>>> do not have the resources to do an adequate job of it > >> >>>>>>> ourselves. > >> >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and > >> >>>>>>> actively "police" is what is written at the bottom of the > >> >>>>>>> ASF > >> >>>>>>> guideline document: > >> >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow > >> >>>>>> any third party to claim any association with the > >> >>>>>> Apache > >> >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval > >> >>>>>> or support by ASF for any third party products or > >> >>>>>> services." > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of > >> >>>>>>> sending out threatening emails. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list > >> >>>>>>> for one week? Do you really need to spark another one > >> >>>>>>> right > >> >>>>>>> now? > >> >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about > >> >>>>>> lookin "bad", I just want justice. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Jacques > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Regards > >> >>>>>> Scott > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Scott, > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is > >> >>>>>>> irrelevant in my message? > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Jacques > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[email protected]> > >> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF > >> >>>>>>> document and I really would prefer it if you kept your > >> >>>>>>> thoughts > >> >>>>>>> to the > >> >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start > >> >>>>>>> scaring people away from marketing the project for us. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Thank you > >> >>>>>>> Scott > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Hey guys, > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/ > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked > >> >>>>>>>> us to send him a demand. > >> >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters > >> >>>>>>>> the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter account. > >> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" > >> >>>>>>>> "OFBiz" and the phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks: > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to > >> >>>>>>>> sections of this page in the following) > >> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache > >> >>>>>>>> trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his > >> >>>>>>>> company. > >> >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's > >> >>>>>>>> bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply send > >> >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, > >> >>>>>>>> though I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked > >> >>>>>>>> you > >> >>>>>>>> to send > >> >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything > >> >>>>>>>> yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did Hans. > >> >>>>>>>> It's a > >> >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on > >> >>>>>>>> feeding the tweets as you already suggested. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not > >> >>>>>>>> only it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also > >> >>>>>>>> shows > >> >>>>>>>> it on > >> >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to > >> >>>>>>>> http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and > >> >>>>>>>> similar) > >> >>>>>>>> graphic logos") > >> >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not > >> >>>>>>>> apply also to > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help > >> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax > >> >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other > >> >>>>>>>> cases?) > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted > >> >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their > >> >>>>>>>> pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is that > >> >>>>>>>> if > >> >>>>>>>> it's > >> >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should > >> >>>>>>>> only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/ > >> >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main > >> >>>>>>>> (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok if > >> >>>>>>>> all > >> >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official > >> >>>>>>>> Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is wrong > >> >>>>>>>> also as > >> >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in > >> >>>>>>>> domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there other > >> >>>>>>>> cases?) > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes > >> >>>>>>>> unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the > >> >>>>>>>> rules, > >> >>>>>>>> if > >> >>>>>>>> you > >> >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other > >> >>>>>>>> cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your duty! > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me > >> >>>>>>>> (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend so > >> >>>>>>>> much > >> >>>>>>>> time > >> >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about > >> >>>>>>>> this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third party > >> >>>>>>>> (ie > >> >>>>>>>> not > >> >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no > >> >>>>>>>> injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this facts > >> >>>>>>>> they > >> >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue > >> >>>>>>>> being to show) and nobody will win anything. There are > >> >>>>>>>> rules, > >> >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard? > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Jacques > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[email protected]> > >> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make > >> >>>>>>>>> sense for all service providers to do this - so please > >> >>>>>>>>> let's > >> >>>>>>>>> not > >> >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to > >> >>>>>>>>> list it at all, would be to enhance the service providers > >> >>>>>>>>> page on > >> >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a > >> >>>>>>>>> full page, linked from the service provider page, where > >> >>>>>>>>> people > >> >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what > >> >>>>>>>>> your own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing > >> >>>>>>>>> everyone's > >> >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself? > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >> >>>>>>>>> Ruppert > >> >>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert > >> >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 > >> >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray > >> >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else > >> >>>>>>>>>> cares they can push it. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> This is news: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/"; > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news > >> >>>>>>>>>>> from an > >> >>>>>>>>>>> enduser > >> >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. > >> >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an > >> >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a> > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no > >> >>>>>>>>>> idea. > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Regards > >> >>>>>>>>>> Scott > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 > >> >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905 > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Log: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other > >> >>>>>>>>>>> news offerings. > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html > >> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: > >> >>>>>>>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff > >> >>>>>>>>>>> === === === > >> >>>>>>>>>>> ===================================================================== > >> >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original) > >> >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010 > >> >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, > >> >>>>>>>>>>> follow > >> >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per > >> >>>>>>>>>>> day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this > >> >>>>>>>>>>> news, > >> >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an > >> >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> " > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF > >> >>>>>>>>>>> export</a> on <a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> " > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV > >> >>>>>>>>>>> export</a> on <a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ > >> >>>>>>>>>>> " > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list > >> >>>>>>>>>>> screen</a> on <a > >> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" > >> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">HotWax Media Blog</a></li> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > -- > > Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates > > > > -- Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates
